Safety of different types of PVC tubing

[MusicalADD]

I have one PVC whistle (Parks Every whistle), and am considering buying some more (GG).

But it occurs to me that I have no idea whether there might be health concerns with use of a PVC mouth piece. I mean, when you think about it, PVC was not designed as an ideal material for a mouthpiece; it was designed to be inexpensive. Once that thought occurred to me my paranoia set in.

Hmmm.... okay, some PVC tubing was designed to carry water, so, presumably that material has been tested so it isn't giving off anything unhealthy into the water.

But what about the PVC tubing designed for electrical conduits? Is the PVC used in electrical conduits exactly the same material as the PVC used in water pipes, and the designation "electrical conduit" simply refers to different dimensions?

In short, are there any health concerns related to the PVC used in some whistles?

[raindog1970]

I would have no worries about a whistle constructed from PVC water pipe, as that should be quite safe.
Although I would be reluctant to put PVC electrical conduit in my mouth, I don't think anybody uses it to make whistles.
My experience has been that PVC electrical conduit is very different than PVC water pipe.
It is heavier and more rigid than water pipe, and doesn't machine as well either.
There are probably several grades of PVC electrical conduit, and perhaps I just picked a poor quality variety to experiment with, but I'm very doubtful that anyone would use it instead of water pipe, if for no other reason than safety concerns.

[Cayden]

Although I would be reluctant to put PVC electrical conduit in my mouth, I don't think anybody uses it to make whistles.

In fact GG whisltes are made of electrical conduit PVC as sold in Italy. I don't see anything wrong with that by the way.

GG whistles are made of gray PVC, used in Italy for electrical conduits. This pipe does not bend or crack even if stepped on, and is not easily scratched either.

I have one PVC whistle (Parks Every whistle), and am considering buying some more (GG)

I'll be quite happy to sell my GG D, as new.

[jemtheflute]

Tony Dixon's basic plastic whistles and flutes are made from electrical conduit tube, or at least, they were when he started out. I use it myself. I'm not aware of any health issues, but we are talking GB/European standard materials here, not US. We can't get hold of a water plumbing PVC pipe remotely like the stuff Doug Tipple uses over here, either dimensionally, especially the wall thickness, nor compositionally (almost porcelain hard) and all the plastic plumbing pipes I'm aware of available here are far softer than the PVCu electrical conduit we have available. I think our plumbers still use copper for most of whatever jobs the American PVC pipe Doug uses is meant for.

I've played a low whistle made from British sourced PVCu conduit for about 10 years now - alright, never intensively - and so far as I know I've suffered no ill effects. Nor have I had any problems arise from working with the stuff (dust etc.) when making simple flutes from it (again, non intensively). Of course, so far as playing those is concerned, they only have skin contact, are not put into the mouth as is a whistle........

Guido Gonzato's whistles are made from a similar European standard electrical conduit PVCu product.

Have we any industrial chemists on board who can research the product specs of both European and American conduit tubing and report back? Short of that, I wouldn't panic! Even if having a PVC whistle head between your lips induces some leaching of something from the plastic (such as we are told can happen if we re-use plastic water bottles.....), I should hardly think it can be at a rate that is going to do any serious damage even with frequent and prolonged habitual use, the surface area concerned being so limited and the contact intermittent plus ingestion of exposed saliva being minimal.

[RVC]

I'll be quite happy to sell my GG D, as new.

PM sent.

RVC

[Cayden]

I'll be quite happy to sell my GG D, as new.

PM sent.

RVC

Not, as yet, received though.

[Ballyshannon]

The way I understand it from speaking directly with a couple different whistle makers including Ronaldo Reyburn who first made whistles from PVC, a completed PVC/CPVC whistle poses no real health issues to the player. It's the inhalation of the dust while working with it that poses the potential health problems due to the toxicity. This is based on materials here in the U.S.

[RVC]

I'll be quite happy to sell my GG D, as new.

PM sent.

RVC

Not, as yet, received though.

OK, I tried again.

RVC

[MagicSailor]

My experience has been that PVC electrical conduit is very different than PVC water pipe.
It is heavier and more rigid than water pipe, and doesn't machine as well either.
There are probably several grades of PVC electrical conduit, and perhaps I just picked a poor quality variety to experiment with, but I'm very doubtful that anyone would use it instead of water pipe, if for no other reason than safety concerns.

I have made several whistles from electrical conduit. The type I've used is thinner walled and lighter than the CPVC water pipe I used and it's easy to work. It's a pale yellow colour, but yellower than the CPVC water pipe. It makes very nice whistles. I also belive that my A/Bb Water Weasel set is electric conduit?

I'm still alive...

Owen

[Feadoggie]

There are a lot of plastics used in whistle mouthpieces. Why would we only be concerned about pvc pipe? What about brass and the stuff that grows inside the tubes? What about aluminum or copper? What about the oils and resins in exotic woods? At least we don't have many lead plugs in use anymore!

I looked up the safety reports on PVC and CPVC pipe before I started making whistles out of the stuff. According to our (USA) federal oversight organizations, the only dangers in these materials come from melting or incinerating the stuff. We can trust our gov't agencies, right? So think twice before you do your Jimi Hendrix imitation with that Water Weasel at your next gig.

The concern with plastic dust is real. If inhaled, it will never biodegrade. YMMV.

Yes, MagicSailor, your Water Weasels are PVC electrical conduit.

Feadoggie

[Thomas-Hastay]

PVC or Poly-Vinyl-Chloride and CPVC (Compressed-PVC) both use Chloride (clorine dirivative) as a "catalyst" in the production of this polymer. Most of this subtance evaporates when it hardens/cools. Chlorine and Floride have been used for water purification without any side effects for decades.

Other plastics, like Vinyl and Nylon etc. use similar similar chemical catalysts and have been employed for years in harmonicas, ocarinas, recorders and many other woodwinds placed in the mouth. I wouldn't be concerned in any way with health risks.

[Carey]

I searched the web for any evidence of health problems caused by PVC or CPVC water pipe or the Delrin (acetal resin) rod I use for the mouthpiece. I have found no reports of harm, And the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) filed with OSHA only mention problems with burning (fumes) or melting (burns) or from the inhaled dust. The issue with the dust is not toxicity, since even the dust appears from what I have read to be inert. The problem comes when the amount of dust inhaled overcomes the lungs ability to expel it.

It seems one could even eat the stuff and it would pass without harm. But I'd like to hear that from someone who is trained in such things before I'll actually believe it's true.

[hoopy mike]

But it occurs to me that I have no idea whether there might be health concerns with use of a PVC mouth piece...

I wouldn't eat a whole one.

Stay Hoopy,
Mike

[Brigitte]

There seem to be a difference with health concerns involved when it is softer PVC because of the softener added to it, hence it is not recommended for toys, food wrappings. The softeners Diethylhexylphthalat which can be absorbed via the mouth, skin and breathing system are under suspicion to cause liver and kidney problems (cancer), also it is interfering with your hormons resulting in infertility, foetus harming etc.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylchlorid
German wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride
English wiki

I presume as with other materials, it depends on the specific combination of a material i.e. copper or brass is usually not a problem but to make it better workable it can be added with lead, just a wee 0,5% adding of lead makes a difference. Lead in brass and copper alloys is not allowed anymore in Europe i.e. in the automobile industry or water pipes but in other countries it is still used.


Brigitte

P.S. Materials usually have a (no idea about the English term) Werkzeugnis which is a listing of the product, I worked in a metall company so i.e. for copper alloys it tells the exact contents of CU, Zn, Sn, Fe as well as traces of lead or others, I presume the same exists for plastic material.

[jemtheflute]

Thanks, Brigitte - that is probably what I had in mind with the re-used water-bottle warning and carcinogenic or hormone-affecting chemicals being leached out. Even if there is any of this chemical in the fairly hard PVC of electrical conduit, I'd still suspect that the amount of exposure from having it between your lips intermittently (and the same piece consistently, so not a constant new source once leached) would not constitute a significant risk. Working with the stuff and regularly breathing in its dust might be more worrisome, but is fairly easily guarded against. It is not a good idea to regularly breathe in any work-place or manufacturing process dust, of course, even if the dust itself is "harmless".

ADDED

I've now read Brigitte's Wikipedia link and looked back at the document about electrical conduit tubing produced by one of the major manufacturers of it whose product I have used:

Here's an extract from their catalogue - whole thing downloadable at http://www.aurigaeurope.com/partners/mk/Egatube.pdf

EGATUBE ROUND CONDUIT SUPER HIGH IMPACT CONDUIT HEAVY GAUGE
3 METRE LENGTHS BLK OR WHI CONDUIT AND MINI 74 Egatube® Conduit
Outside diameter / Wall thickness
(nominal mm) (nominal mm)
16mm HIP/1........... 1.7
20mm HIP/2........... 1.8
25mm HIP/3........... 1.9
32mm HIP/4............2.5
38mm HIP/5 BLK......2.5
50mm HIP/6 BLK..... 3.2
Manufactured in accordance with BS.4607 and BS.6099.
STANDARD LENGTH: 3 metres.
MATERIAL: PVC-U

I would think it a fair assumption that other manufacturers will work to the same BS criteria and produce pretty much identical products.

I haven't checked out the British Standard specifications....... but from the Wikipedia article it would seem that PVC-u or UPVC does not contain the softeners that are the source of the health worries in question.