Cliffs of moher and F natural

[fearfaoin]

I can't recall ever noticing anybody, live or recorded, playing an F nat anywhere in Cliffs of Moher

I started wondering about this when I heard Grey Larson use Fnat (or maybe
supernatural) on the disc that accompanied Chris Smith's book on Irish
Accompaniment. In local sessions, most people roll the E instead of going up
to F on that figure, so on certain repeats I can play with half-holing the F to
various degrees without sounding too out of place. If I'm playing it slowly,
I like to slide up to Fnat in the B part.

[David Levine]

Its easy enough to use the Fn as the second note in the second part. Even better on a key-less flute. Makes it a mournful sounding, sexy West Clare tune. Northwest Clare maybe?

The Cliffs of Moher, at sunset, are absolutely spectacular. One of the wonders of the world.

[Gordon]

I can't recall ever noticing anybody, live or recorded, playing an F nat anywhere in Cliffs of Moher - not saying it isn't/shouldn't be done, just that I haven't come across it, and it's a pretty bog-standard sesh tune!
FWIW, I tend to play a dotted crotchet E at the beginning of the B music, often gracing into it by hitting a very brief D first. I vary what I do on the various recurrences of the figure.

Glad you said this - I've been wondering the same thing since this thread showed up. Never heard a Fnat in the tune, and I'm not sure where, or why, one would show up. Still, there are always odd variations of tunes out there, so I guess it's possible... But at a session, on an otherwise pretty standard tune, I wouldn't think to use an odd variation, even if it was the way I preferred to play it - save that for solo stuff. The idea in a session, IMO, is not to confuse or otherwise keep folks on their toes, but to play things communally. I guess if you all discussed it beforehand, and wanted to give it a spin, then that'd work...

[sbfluter]

That is one of the troubles of learning from recordings. Nobody is playing anything "bog standard" on a recording. I thought maybe the Fn was one of the quirks that made the tune what it was. Apparently it is just an embellishment.

[David Levine]

"The idea in a session, IMO, is not to confuse or otherwise keep folks on their toes, but to play things communally."

If you're with sympathetic people and musicians you feel comfortable with, you can do anything with a wink and a smile. It's a give and take, always. I love it when somebody I've been playing with for years introduces a new wrinkle. What I don't like is when somebody I don't know is showing of just to impress.

[colomon]

Its easy enough to use the Fn as the second note in the second part. Even better on a key-less flute. Makes it a mournful sounding, sexy West Clare tune. Northwest Clare maybe?

East Clare ("Cliffs" is the second tune). This version is actually loaded with F-naturals, but that's because it's in G dorian rather than A dorian.

[Cayden]

but that's because it's in G dorian rather than A dorian

One doesn't follow from the other. O'Neill had the tune in G, the earliest recording I am aware of is that by Liam Walsh in G and no f nat in sight.

In east Clare, both Canny and Rochford played around with keys and moods, the direct influence Tommy Potts had on them both, but I have recordings of Rochford and Micho Russell playing the tune without any out of the ordinary notes in it.

The old people around here invariably started the tune on the lower part by the way.

Personally I'd never put an f nat in the A version.

[Cathy Wilde]

I admit. I've tried it more than once, and I got it from somebody -- don't know who. .... Wait. Doesn't Martin Hayes have a version of it with the shady F? Or maybe it's Dezi Donelly; one of those fiddlers who likes to get a little loopy and swoopy.

But maybe it works for Mystery Fiddler cos he's really good and places it just so. But me, I've never felt right with it; every time I've played it that way I feel a little easy/cheap/obvious like, "rock 'n' roll, dude!"

Not that I don't like a nice shady F now and again (I can't help myself on the Whistler of Rosslea; I've got CartyBrain!)

But it just seems not-quite-meant-to-be-there in that one, at least the way the tune's usually played by us mortals. The Cook in the Kitchen's another one I hear people flatten the F on, and I don't know if it buys the tune a whole lot except maybe as a variation on a banjo. I've heard it that way and it's kinda cute there.

[Gordon]

"The idea in a session, IMO, is not to confuse or otherwise keep folks on their toes, but to play things communally."

If you're with sympathetic people and musicians you feel comfortable with, you can do anything with a wink and a smile. It's a give and take, always. I love it when somebody I've been playing with for years introduces a new wrinkle. What I don't like is when somebody I don't know is showing of just to impress.

Agreed. An odd deviation here and there - talking flute and keeping my own quirks private - is never a bad idea, especially on a tune we're otherwise bored to tears with. And playing with people you're comfortable with, and like, never hurts.

Sometimes tunes are just learned differently, place to place. I ran into that recently at a new (for me) session in the second part of Sheehan's - an old chestnut tune I've played for years. They all went into the tune, and I jumped in. In the second part, they dipped into a minor key. I thought the guitar player hit an odd (read, wrong) chord, but next time 'round, I realized the fiddlers, too, had dipped into the same, aformentioned and infamous F nat, and , in what was/is a major key tune. It was easy enough to half-hole the note and keep going, but it took me by surprise. Still, it was their session, not mine.

[David Levine]

Sheehan's is a perfect example of a tune with a shifting F# and Fn. Some Am jigs do the same thing. Banish Mishbuchas is another tune, in the third part. But I always play an Fn in the first part of The Cook in the Kitchen.

There's nothing at all wrong with playing around with a tune. It depends on when and where you do it. To say, "I would never..." implies a rigidity that is not appealing.

[Cayden]

To say, "I would never..." implies a rigidity that is not appealing.

Does it now David? It's just as easy to say 'there's nothing wrong with messing around with a tune' is a sign of a careless bad-taste everything-goes attitude.

But the crux of the matter is in what context the remark is made. I would never play an F natural in The Cliffs of Moher, at the spot under discussion, because I think it sounds awful. Throwing F naturals around just because you can, regardless of the context, is not part of the musical vocabulary of any player I admire. There's a time and place for these things, and this particular instance is not one of them.

I can also say I would not start Banish Misfortune on an Fnat for the same reason. You hear people do that, I wouldn't do it. An F neutral or a sliding F? Maybe, on occasion. F natural? Never.

[David Levine]

Please forgive the sloppy playing. Just to demonstrate a point. This is one way to play it - and one way that Kevin Burke plays it.
I play it on a keyless Olwell D.

Cliffs of Moher

[Cayden]

Please forgive the sloppy playing. Just to demonstrate a point.

I am well aware how Kevin Burke plays the tune David. What is the point?

This is how some of the old Clare musicians played the tune, without making any particular point by the way.

[David Levine]

Very nice playing. The point is whether an Fn can be used in the tune.

[Cathy Wilde]

But don't you agree that "always" can be just as rigid? Again, this is only personal taste (as most of it is; whether someone's setting is adopted as standard just depends on how many people share the same taste), but it seems to me when people do flatten a note it has much more effect if the note is played naturally or colored differently at some other place to point up the contrast ... for example, the C sharps in the B part of the Peacock's Feather 1 (as opposed to the Other Peacock's Feather -- forgive, but I don't have another name for it). If you're going to highlight the note, then highlight the note.