A word about Overton Whistles...actually a lot of words.

[MTGuru]

OK, Doc, I found it:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#788155

That whole thread is about whistle embouchure, so maybe worth reading through.

Here are links to some of my previous comments:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#787534

And, no disrespect to the poster, here's an example of a common attitude that leads to the kind of problems you experienced:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#787816

[Carey]

It would seem that the shape of the oral cavity has an effect on the whistle's tone and playability. I read somewhere on Wikipedia about this phenomenon-- something about the shape of the airstream as it enters the fipple. I think the tongue position, openness of the throat, and obviously breath pressure also play a role.

For sure! The length and quality of the airway has a lot of impact on the sound that comes out of the whistle, that airway includes the part in the whistle and the part in your head. A smooth straight quick moving air stream makes a different sound when it passes the through the window than a more turbulent one.

Have a look at the easy vs. hard to play whistles. You'll see that the "harder" ones allow the air more freedom either by being shorter from tip to window or taller (thicker?) from fipple to mouthpiece "ceiling." These are relying on the player more to prepare the air for whatever sound they want. Almost like a flute player can play pure and sweet or dirty and growly. I find my mouth and throat move nearly the same if I'm playing the whistle or the flute. The lips have less work to do with the whistle of course, but it's not zero.

[pastorkeith]

Doc and MT thanks for the encouragement to pull out the Overton and try, try again

PAX
pastorkeith

[bepoq]

Do you think there might be attendant dangers in "proper instruction" too John? I've not the time to spend a long post on it, but there is something unsettling about the "this is the proper way to play a trad instrument" (even though I do it a fair bit myself in the course of lessons) that is reminiscent of the Grey Larsen book. (discl. do doubt it has good qualities etc. etc.). What do you reckon?

[MTGuru]

Yes, Ben, good point; the language is slippery here. By proper instruction I'd include encouraging self-instruction through imitation and experimentation. Part of learning an instrument is learning how to learn - becoming aware of the physical parameters that make a difference. And a tip from an instructor to think about, say, hand position or instrument angle may be more valuable in the long run than a rigid directive to "do it this way".

By the same token, for beginners too many options can be counterproductive, and starting with one reliable technique as a basis for growth can be helpful. I know that in the few formal lessons I've given, I've had to start out correcting some basic flaws that were outside the envelope of good technique. And suggestions to at least "try it this way" have paid off in immediate improvement.

Doc and MT thanks for the encouragement to pull out the Overton and try, try again

Hi Keith, nice to see you back.

[pastorkeith]

MT wrote: Hi Keith, nice to see you back

MT -
Been out of the parsonage for two months for renovations. Picked up my doctorate of ministry. Took a sabbatical. Lonnnnnng summer. Good to be back! Now to begin to learn to play my Overton low D....

Peace
Keith

[deisman]

I'll second Trixie's and Doc's (third?) thoughts that more info on this subject would be appreciated. Interesting thread - thanks Doc for kicking it off.


Deisman

[Guinness]

If you like reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple#Embouchure

And see 6th paragraph of:
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/torture3.html

[Doc Jones]

OK, Doc, I found it:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#788155

That whole thread is about whistle embouchure, so maybe worth reading through.

Here are links to some of my previous comments:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#787534

And, no disrespect to the poster, here's an example of a common attitude that leads to the kind of problems you experienced:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#787816

Thanks for digging John. Good stuff.

Doc

[Ballyshannon]

Check out this Joanie Madden video and watch how she's placing the mouthpiece....resting on her lower lip and barely holding it in place against her upper lip. The mouthpiece is never "inserted" into her mouth at all. It just rests there in nearly flute-like fashion. You can see it clearly in the close-ups as she takes a breath and begins blowing again. This is exactly how Brigitte Goldie suggested I play my Overton sop D and has made a world of difference in my overall playing with all my whistles. This is the same technique the Goldies passed on to Doc, and here's a great example of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9aIrs3ZsI

[pastorkeith]

I've been messing with a Overton Low D this summer. A modified piper's grip seems to work the reach OK, but there are times when I blow the LowD and E in the first octave and nothing comes out or it is the second octave - Could this be an embrochure issue, or just my newbiness?
I do note that to blow higher in the second octave that I do pinch my lips tighter, rather than howe Joanie does it in the video. Maybe I am breathing wrong - like through my eyes or something.
Blessings
Keith

[Ballyshannon]

I don't play low whistles, so my experience with this "relaxed" technique is limited to high whistles. Those who have experience with Overton low Ds could be of help here, but from your description of the low notes, as with any whistle, I'd imagine it's a matter of getting used to the whistle and air requirements. On the high end, especially with whistles that require a lot of push, many good players tend to focus the air flow more as they approach the higher notes and gradually form a tighter "O" with their mouth.

Regarding getting nothing out of the low D and E notes, I can't speak for your Overton low D but I experienced the same thing when I first got my Overton sop D. Mine isn't what I'd call a hard-blower but definitely takes more air than any of my other whistles (including my Chieftain sop D), and takes more push to sound a good solid low D. So the first time I pulled it out at a session to do a quick tuning check with the other instruments, nothing came out. A bit more push and there it was. For many years, I've just been used to my easy-blowing Burkes and Sindts. This Overton sop D can take a lot of push on the low end but the low D/E will break if pushed too hard. As was suggested to me by the Goldies, you just have to get used to the air requirements and have a bit of a different mind set with Overtons. But once you get it..... ah, yes.

Keep in mind, we're all different and any suggestion of embrochure and technique is only a basis on which to develop your own technique that best suits you. We all have different physiology, natural breathing habits (some blow from their gut and some from their throats), etc. I think the relaxed technique the Goldies present is a great starting point, but may not apply to everyone. Experiment. Try changing the position of the mouthpiece. Many players do better with the mouthpiece placed off to one side or the other from the center of their mouth, myself being one.

The biggest thing is to just keep at it.

[Mick Down Under]

I've been messing with a Overton Low D this summer. A modified piper's grip seems to work the reach OK, but there are times when I blow the LowD and E in the first octave and nothing comes out or it is the second octave - Could this be an embrochure issue, or just my newbiness?
I do note that to blow higher in the second octave that I do pinch my lips tighter, rather than howe Joanie does it in the video. Maybe I am breathing wrong - like through my eyes or something.
Blessings
Keith

Hello Keith, I'm a beginning player myself so what I say may be not quite right, but I also own a Low D Overton and my own personal experience with sounding the low D or E notes usually comes from either not having a proper seal on one or more of the holes or trying to play too quietly. Sometimes clogging is the problem but that too can be from trying to play too quietly.
I have also found that I sometimes shift my fingers (usually B2) whilst moving up and down the whistle notes and then on the return I don't get a seal on E, which makes it sound high or not at all on E and D.
Just my own personal experience, mate, it may not be the case with you. Best of luck with your playing.


Mick

[pastorkeith]

Thanks, Mate. I'l pay more attention to closing the holes. Sometimes my fingers don't do what I tell them to

Blessings
Keith

[Mick Down Under]

Glad to be of any help. Hope it helped solve your problem.


Mick