training finger strength?

[talasiga]

......
For instance, on a day to day basis, I limit the time I play, for if I play too much for too long I could risk developing too much tension in my fingers.

Forgive me Cork but IMO your ending statement really pulls the plug on your position.
(Your salient position being that playing the flute is all that is needed for effective development.)

[talasiga]

Eldarion
...............................
You're setting up some straw men here, I think..

........

Mind you, there is nothing wrong with setting up straw men per se
providing it is done syantificly.

[Cork]

......
For instance, on a day to day basis, I limit the time I play, for if I play too much for too long I could risk developing too much tension in my fingers.

Forgive me Cork but IMO your ending statement really pulls the plug on your position.
(Your salient position being that playing the flute is all that is needed for effective development.)

I did say that a greater hazard could be overdevelopment, talasiga. A bit of daily practice is a good thing, but too much really can be too much.

[Eldarion]

Eldarion, several people who have posted to this thread have a great deal of training in this area. You mentioned "unsubstantiated claims" "anecdotes" "overgeneralised assumptions" "ill-informed speculation."
Such as? Can you be specific?

Somehow I knew I wouldn't need to look too far for an example:

But there is a direct correlation between being strong and playing the flute for three or four hours.

What do you mean by "being strong"? Core body strength? Having a strong grip? The whole statement itself doesn't sound very rational. What proof do you have for this direct correlation?

Your contribution to this thread has been negative and pointless. Your criticism is vague, lacking in specifics, and with no basis in fact. Far from being either "syantific" or helpful, your post is off-putting and discouraging.

I'll grant you the "negative" part because thats what I feel about the whole discussion. However I would beg to differ that my post was pointless. I have no formal training in physiology other than the tip of the iceberg taught to most biology majors. But what I'm putting forth is that muscle mechanics are more complex than the oversimplifed pseudo-truisms that are thrown about here, and not to be mislead by people who are neither experts in physiology nor flute playing.

[David Levine]

Eldarion, you admit to "...no formal training in physiology other than the tip of the iceberg taught to most biology majors." Certainly "muscle mechanics" are more complex than the brief discussion on this thread. But I doubt that a more detailed analysis of musculature is necessary for our purpose here.
I may not be an expert in physiology but I do have certification in personal training and I teach classes in core-strength and resistance training. I have also practiced Yoga for the past forty years and played flute for the past twenty. When you refer to "...oversimplifed pseudo-truisms that are thrown about...by people who are neither experts in physiology nor flute playing" you are making generalized assumptions that are both inaccurate and gratuitously insulting.

But there is a direct correlation between being strong and playing the flute for three or four hours.

Apparently you find fault with this statement. It seems too obviously true to need verification. I will refer you to Eamonn Cotter’s interview on Brad Hurley’s site. I am not sure if you are any more familiar with Eamonn Cotter and Brad Hurley than you are with the principles of strength training. Eamonn said:

In my classes, I emphasize the physical aspects of it -- the use of the diaphragm, power, stamina, and how you can play for three or four hours and not end up on the floor. Play a note for as long as you can to build up your diaphragm. When I play with Shaskeen we play for three or four hours continuously.

The wooden flute … needs to be played with more energy … you just need more power, you have to drive it out a bit more.

Grey Larsen also points out:

[Flute playing] puts an odd strain on your spine and upper torso. It really puts your body into a very unnatural position much of which is unmovable while you are playing.

Neither Eamonn nor Grey refers specifically to strength training or Yoga. But if you cannot see the relevance (not necessarily grip strength) to playing the flute for "three or four hours continuously," and developing the muscles needed to do so, then it would be fruitless to continue this discussion.

http://www.firescribble.net/flute/interviews.html

[david_h]

Strength. Stamina. Different ? Relevant to doing something for 4 hours ?

[Eldarion]

Eldarion, you admit to "...no formal training in physiology other than the tip of the iceberg taught to most biology majors." I may not be an expert in physiology but I do have certification in personal training and I teach classes in core-strength and resistance training. I have also practiced Yoga for the past forty years and played flute for the past twenty.

I am well aware that you are trained in strength/resistance training. But it is a huge assumption you are making that the principles of core strength training and bodybuilding necessarily applies to the muscle mechanics most advantageous to flute playing and the augmentation of them. Surely you can take a minute off from feeling insulted and instead perceive this gaping discrepancy.

It is with this same lack of distinction that leads you to bring up the example of Eamonn Cotter's interview to support your statement, in which he is actually discussing on the emphasis of flute playing mechanics in his classes. This is different from core strength training, or the other bunch of examples eg. grip exercises proposed in this thread. The way I see it Grey Larsen's example is more a postural issue than a strength issue, unless you're talking about someone who lacks the structural support to sit upright.

[Jack Bradshaw]

This topic has woken me up, once again to the enormous commercial potential of "THE CONCRETE FLUTE" !!!!

Get those biceps ready Jon.......

PS: Who has a good "marketing background ? Denny ?

Edit: Update: making a reamer for the impact hammer............

[Denny]

PS: Who has a good "marketing background ? Denny ?

bit snarky for that, isn't he?

Yer thinking of my better half! Should I have her get in touch?

[johnkerr]

Strength. Stamina. Different ? Relevant to doing something for 4 hours ?

I would say they are different things, yes, but two sides of the same coin. Strength is the attribute that allows a person to perform a physical act. The greater the strength, the greater the extent to which that physical act can be performed. To use the trivial example of lifting weights, the stronger one is the more weight one can lift. Stamina, OTOH, is the attribute that allows a person to perform a physical act continuously over a period of time. The greater one's stamina, the longer one can perform the act, whatever it is.

Both strength and stamina are needed to play the flute, which is possibly the most physically demanding of instruments. Building core strength is needed in order to produce a good tone and to develop the ability to maintain a playing posture without injuring oneself. Building stamina is needed in order to sustain one's playing over long periods without tiring or degradation. I'm pretty sure that despite our earlier dustup in this thread David and I would be in agreement on that. Where we seemed to disagree, I think, was on the best means toward the end of increasing both one's strength and one's stamina. I would submit that both the aerobic exercise that I advocated and the core strength and flexibility exercise that David advocated will contribute to increasing both strength and stamina. The difference is in which benefit is primary and which is secondary for each of them. The primary benefit of aerobic exercise is an increase in one's stamina, with strength gains being secondary. The primary benefit of strength and flexibility exercise is strength (duh), but such exercise when done over time will also increase one's stamina. The well rounded person really needs to have aspects of both in his/her training regimen in order to achieve optimal health. Obviously, since flute playing is a very physically demading task, so does the flute player. Either that, or the flute player needs a renewable prescription for whatever Peter Horan has been smoking for the past 80+ years.

[david_h]

Is the 'strength' that it takes to hold a posture while carrying not much more weight than ones body the same as the 'strength' that it takes to lift a weight ? In one the muscles are moving, in the other they are are not.

[David Levine]

John is right, in general, of course. But keeping in mind what Seamus Egan says -- that playing the flute takes no more breath than talking, and the example set by Peter Horan -- you wonder to what extent aerobic training would affect flute playing.

Engaging the muscle without changing its length is isometric. This is similar to Yoga practice and to certain types of resistance training. Its value in holding one's posture for hours at a time is pretty obvious.

Engaging the muscle while changing its length is isotonic. This practice would involve lengthening and shortening the muscle and engaging the muscle in concentric and eccentric contractions. Done properly the muscle, although becoming denser, also becomes more flexible and stretched, as in some forms of Yoga.

Much of resistance training, and core development, can be done as an aerobic exercise. Squats, lunges, push-ups and crunches done as Tabata workouts are perfect examples. Tabata workouts work as anaerobic and aerobic exercises at the same time.

My own feeling is that everything counts. It's just that some things are more efficient than others. My exercise program involves teaching three classes of resistance training/core development/Yoga a week for about 40-45 minutes per session. I do private sessions as well but my own workouts fit into the three 45" sessions. There is plenty of stuff on the net about all this. And I'll be happy to answer any questions by email.

Tabata is the name of a Japanese researcher who discovered an interesting way to increase both anaerobic and aerobic pathways at the same time. It's one of those strange training programs that seems to fit across disciplines: it's excellent for bicyclists, speed skaters, Olympic lifters, or the person looking to lose fat quickly.
Take one exercise and perform it in the following manner:
1) For twenty seconds, do as many repetitions as possible.
2) Rest for ten seconds
3) Repeat seven more times!
You really shouldn't consider doing much after the Tabata workout. Your lungs will be going like a locomotive engine.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=490160

[rama]

I got a Gripmaster this week (here they are called digi-flex), went for the green one, not too easy......
I can say it REALLY made a difference after a few days already.

I got more control on my fingers and the cuts/rolls have improved some, so I will keep exercising daily.
Thanks to the person who recommended the Gripmaster!

Berti

success!

[johnkerr]

John is right, in general, of course. But keeping in mind what Seamus Egan says -- that playing the flute takes no more breath than talking, and the example set by Peter Horan -- you wonder to what extent aerobic training would affect flute playing.

Well, in flute playing as in talking it's not only the amount of breath you use but also what use you make of that breath that matters in the end. And just as the use you make of your breath in order to talk well is going to be different than the use you make of your breath in order to play the flute well, the other parts of your body that are required to make use of that breath are different as well. One can talk and hold a conversation with a very weak heart and no diaphragmatic support, but not so in playing the flute. The diaphragm and the heart are muscles, no? Muscles that receive quite a workout and gain strength from aerobic exercise. That gain in strength would have to be beneficial to one's flute playing, would it not?

And note that Seamus Egan could just as well have said that playing the flute requires no more breath than singing an operatic aria, and that would have been every bit as true. His point was that you do not need to move mass quantities of air in order to play the flute, which is what many beginners erroneously think. He wasn't saying anything about what you need to do with the air you are moving, which is where the muscles come in.

[bepoq]

Avoiding the typical Talasigan argument over linguistic uses of the word strength (which is interesting, but perhaps not so very helpful, practically speaking, for the topic at hand), I would regret the polarized nature of this conversation, believing that these strengthening exercises and yoga etc are probably generally helpful, including for Irish flute playing, but don't really speak directly to Irish flute playing so much as other exercises might.

Feeling oneself strong in core etc may well help my playing to some extent, perhaps particularly if one is playing in a huffy puffy style and thus driving from the diaphragm percussively, but it is not those muscles that are the most important in my opinion, at least not in that way. The reason that Seamus speaks of the flute taking no more breath than talking, and the way that Eamonn plays for so long is mainly down to embouchure muscles - they are what most control the airway, allowing you to use quite little powerfully driven air to great effect, and they are what get blown out earliest in playing for a long amount of time (or even a short amount when they are not developed). The connection between the diaphragm, whatever else you may articulate with and the embouchure muscles is what gives you stamina from that side I think.

From the point of view of the fingers, I would not generally advocate Berti's solution, much preferring finger exercises to be on the flute, BUT, I have known people who, while having enough strength to hold the flute, find that their grip gets very tired quickly - particularly if they've small hands and are extending them over a wide position. A basic strengthening of the sort Berti advocates can be useful just to get them over that hump I think, though once over it, I would definitely go back to playing the flute a lot and spend my time on that, as I don't think that the grip machines are necessary for maintenance if you are playing a lot.

Linguistically opposing strength and stamina isn't quite right I think as they are interdependent in complex ways, no?