Playing on your shoulder

[pipersgrip]

I have found that resting the tip of the head on my shoulder easy for me, since I use piper's grip. Is there anything wrong with that?

[chas]

This thread addresses it:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... t=shoulder

I think there's another recent thread on the same subject.

[daiv]

try moving your right hand thumb on the side of the flute, not on the bottom. that should give you more grip so you wont need to rest it on your shoulder.

[Denny]

WC just figure it out

You can do it.

[talasiga]

try moving your right hand thumb on the side of the flute, not on the bottom. that should give you more grip so you wont need to rest it on your shoulder.

yes. like the bansuri player here
http://www.bansuriflute.com/Bansuriflute/Home.html
.

PS If you ferret about this site you will come across some succinct instructions on the how of it.

[StephenR]

Not sure if I see any real advantage. If you sound better resting it on your shoulder its a clear indication this method is forcing a correction in your embouchure.

So why start a habit that is ergonomically compromised when you could correct the problem without? It would seem that the shoulder method is either a: helping you to steady the flute so you can keep your embouchure steady; or b: correcting the direction of your air stream; or, possibly; c: simply freeing your mind of one of the many things to pay attention to, thus enabling more concentration on tone.

I know some great players out there do it, but that doesn't make it a choice or valid technique. If you do sound better why not try and figure out what its doing thats improving your sound and see if you can recreate that using a normal posture.

[Guinness]

I know some great players out there do it, but that doesn't make it a choice or valid technique.

Then what is the validation criteria for "choice" technique and who determines it?

If you do sound better why not try and figure out what its doing thats improving your sound and see if you can recreate that using a normal posture.

What if "normal" posture causes more stress?

So why start a habit that is ergonomically compromised...

The only truly ergonomic position for the flute is in its case.

[Aanvil]

Don't play on your shoulder.

Our well known and loved players that do are good in spite of this not because of it.

Sit up straight and keep an open an unrestricted path for your air.

Chances are extremely high you'll be in for a world of hurt if you go down this path.

This is hard enough as it is. Don't stack the deck against yourself.

[Trip-]

The Whistle Collector,
I had the same problem piper's grip, resting on shoulder...

I found out that the trick to hold the flute in place is using the right hand pinky finger placed on top/side. That's it, no more shoulder needed.

I'm sure u'll get it right, resting on shoulder is not adviced and painful.

cheers

[daiv]

if you would like better tone, please check the link i post to talasiga below the quote, and check my posts here (and where they link) http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=61371

your time will be better spent working on your embouchure (and a little on the nicholson grip that i sent to talasiga) than on putting the flute on your shoulder. there are other possible grips, of course, and they are all good. today i was playing the whistle with one hand on it, and the other waving around between notes, just to see if i could do it. not a problem. i also can play the concertina without hand straps. it's a b*tch, but i can be done. so the problem aint your grip, or your shoulder, but your embouchure. i can and do play with multiple grips, depending on my mood and the tune i am playing.

Then what is the validation criteria for "choice" technique and who determines it?

well, the fact that it twists and distorts the spine and shoulder muslces makes it a bit iffy. a lot of tendon problems are caused by undue stress in the upper neck, and shoulders, and surprise surprise, this is the stress where putting it on your shoulders builds up.

the flute players who play the flute like that are probably the ones who just happen to not be hurting themselves. i'm sure a bunch of others have tried it, and hurt themselves, and stopped.

in general, the head is best served by remaining upright, loose, and movable.

i have tried doing it on the shoulder, and i found it nice because the sound echoed back to me. it did not cause me any stress, because i have spent many years learning how to use my upper back, lower back, legs, abs, and neck in order to reduce possible strain. this is because i have a bad habit to slouch and sit in contorted positions. i am no expert, but as i often fight with causing back, neck, and arm pain, i am pretty good at spotting a habit that will cause pain down the road. that is one of them.

that is what makes it not a choice technique.

The only truly ergonomic position for the flute is in its case.

yup. as with most things. but, when you hold the flute up, you are putting pressure on the muscles behind your shoulder, and on your wrists. why add two or three more spots by putting it on your shoulder?

StephenR wrote:
If you do sound better why not try and figure out what its doing thats improving your sound and see if you can recreate that using a normal posture.


What if "normal" posture causes more stress?

try moving your right hand thumb on the side of the flute, not on the bottom. that should give you more grip so you wont need to rest it on your shoulder.

yes. like the bansuri player here
http://www.bansuriflute.com/Bansuriflute/Home.html
.

PS If you ferret about this site you will come across some succinct instructions on the how of it.

i do it on the other finger. i have always done that, even on the silver flute. after reading this, http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm , i have become more resolute.

larry nugent holds his flute very much like the picture you have linked to.

[Guinness]

the flute players who play the flute like that are probably the ones who just happen to not be hurting themselves. i'm sure a bunch of others have tried it, and hurt themselves, and stopped.

That's your analysis? Pffft!

Look, no one has presented any evidence whatsoever which proves that shouldering leads to long term injury or squelches tone. All we have are a few testimonials which say that some have tried it for what sounds like a very brief period and subsequently experienced discomfort. Fine revert to the "normal" position. It has been pointed out already that the ability to shoulder the flute for long periods probably has to do with one's body type. I seem to have a short neck and so this position works for me.

BTW, what I've stated is equally applicable to all the other contentious flute positions discussed in this forum. Some people screw up their hand by holding a mouse. The majority don't. Go figure.

[StephenR]

"The only truly ergonomic position for the flute is in its case."

That may well be true.

Have a look at a couple of interviews on Brad Hurley's flute site. On the Grey Larson interview even playing not on the shoulder he finds it hard on the body.
Then on Garry Shannon's interview he's asked about common mistakes he tells his students to avoid, one of which is playing on the shoulder even though that's how he plays.

http://www.firescribble.net/flute/shannon.html

http://www.firescribble.net/flute/larsen.html

There aren't any governing bodies that dictate what is proper or improper technique so you can call me out on that one. I would seriously doubt that "normal causes more stress" though. It could be, however, that your difficulty in supporting the flute steady without the shoulder has you trying to compensate by gripping too hard.

Flutes are relatively light and so require very little energy to support. The key is getting your thumbs positioned to balance. This is probably a bit harder if you are using a piper's grip, but still possible. I personally have very short stubby fingers and play a full size flute without piper's grip. I do recall it being more of a struggle supporting the flute at first, but now it takes no thought and I can play relaxed. When I hold my flute in playing position I can pull it away from my mouth take all my fingers from the holes and it balances effortlessly between the thumb and first finger crotch and my other thumb.

[talasiga]

I have found that resting the tip of the head on my shoulder easy for me, since I use piper's grip.
......

Prove it .......

[Cork]

try moving your right hand thumb on the side of the flute, not on the bottom. that should give you more grip so you wont need to rest it on your shoulder.

yes. like the bansuri player here
http://www.bansuriflute.com/Bansuriflute/Home.html
.

PS If you ferret about this site you will come across some succinct instructions on the how of it.

It not uncommonly seems that keyless Irish flutes could suffer somewhat in their balance, in that they could feel just a bit heavy at their head end.

With that in mind, perhaps using one's shoulder could serve to compensate for such weight.

My not being a bansuri player, I went to the site you suggested, talasiga, as above, and I looked around.

Frankly, what I could see of the bansuri suggests that its balance, end to end, appears to be better than that of the keyless Irish flute.

In that sense, moreover, perhaps the two flutes could not be quite the same in the way they are held.

That is, I don't hold a flute on my shoulder, but I think I can see why some do.

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

Although I do not play the Irish flute on my shoulder I thought I would chime in, as I play daegeum(Korean bamboo flute), which does rest on my shoulder. I've played in for 4 years now with no issues, and I am aware of many great players well into their 90's still at it. My teacher claimed the shoulder thing really only becomes an issue if you tense up, for daegeum you have to be really relaxed, perhaps this is why there are no issues among players. I've noticed a lot of Irish flute players get very tense when playing. Also I really don't think in the case of wooden flutes that playing on your shoulder is going to help much, it sounds better simply cause the song is bouncing off your shoulder and you can hear it better. Play next to a wall you will get the same exact effect, thus I decided the whole shoulder thing was not necessary.
In regards to the whole balance issue, I think a correction of finger or hand placement is all that's necessary. Some flutes balance great for some, but not well for others, i've found this to be the case. For folks playing pipers grip, you just have to handle the fact that the flute was a classical instrument, it was designed to be held in such a way, if you want to play pipers grip, get a flute designed for it.