'He's great to work with, he'll take care of it'

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:33 am

Peter Laban wrote:
Clearly even worse, though, is the number of people making just dreadful instruments, although I do think the "marketplace" eventually gets round to responding. ...
It's only such a shame before that happens half the people on the forum get stuck with instruments like that. ...

Yeah, but this forum is also the home of WhOA. I've been guilty of buying whistles just because they're new and shiny and being discussed on the board. I've bought whistles that I had no need for, and it was my decision, so I don't know if I'd call that being "stuck" with a whistle. Based on my own experience and years of reading this forum, I have to wonder how much whistle shopping is truly need based? I'd wager not the majority, and imagine WhOA has significantly fueled the proliferation of whistle makers--both good and bad.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:09 am

Peter Laban wrote:How many Serpents are rusting in drawers or are being used as tent-pegs out there? Be honest now.

My tent deserves better pegs than that!

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:52 am

"Cute little pennywhistles" or musical instruments? I started on a Clarke original C with a Bill Ochs tape and book and felt overjoyed at the whole thing; I would have been happy all eternity on that Clarke as long as i was learning new tunes and playing increasingly better. Then, yes, I saw and got addicted to the many beautiful whistles that were on the market.

I love to have beautiful, durable classy looking, substantial musical instruments. What I hear between Peter's lines over time is that it's the music that's most important and the self expression and sharing of it; our discussions at times (with me among the most guilty) hover about the superficial WHOA aspects instead, which is ok and is what it is.

And yes, as Dale said, the marketplace ultimately seems to correct with respect to less than adequate makers and retailers. However, as I recall, regarding the specific whistle line noted by Peter, there was much praise and a grand following for a line of whistles that (and here I differ with Peter) serve better as weapons (too difficult to sharpen the ends for tent pegs) than musical instruments. That can be frustrating, but it's part of the natural course. Hey, an entire (well almost half of one) nation voted for a dormitory panty raiding baffoon for president, right? Maybe that market is correcting as well.

The difference is that if you buy Copelands at high prices, in my experience you have about an 80% chance of getting a truly wonderful and beautiful and lasting musical instrument on the first shot that will last a lifetime. Yes, some of the other great makers (and Michael is a great maker) give you better odds still - some 100%. What I'm getting to here is the fly by night maker or as irks Peter and rightfully so, the non-musical maker for want of a better term - either of whom just makes entire lines of unsatisfactory whistles that either go back and forth much of the time to try to correct or lay frustratingly in one's drawer as Peter noted.

Maybe it would help if newbies and others would think before they write the glowing one-sided reviews of the latest acquisition and write instead about development of their own playing and enjoyment as so many do.

This is not meant as a put down (because it definitely includes me at various times) and mostly just reflects the enthusiasm of the people of this Board; but some thought along these lines would help to not "guide" new players and enthusiasts to spending money unnecessarily on things that simply are not what they purport to be - instruments capably conveying a wonderful body of music.

One of the great joys of this whole experience has been weaving into traveling about keeping an open eye for and trying out all types of cheapies - follow Peter's lead and just go out and listen and play all types of cheapies - you can have 50 different whistles for the price of one.

Sorry, a bit of Philo wind there. So, in short, what they said.

Philo

syn whistles · Post by **syn whistles** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:55 pm

Jerry Freeman wrote: I would like to suggest that you go ahead and send the whistle back for adjustment. That will alert the maker to the problem and should allow him to change what he's doing so he can tighten up his procedures. It sounds as though you like the whistle except for that, and the defect is preventing the whistle from giving the pleasure it should. It would be nice if yours is the last whistle he makes that disappoints a customer for that reason.
Best wishes,
Jerry

I agree with Jerry. For a variety of reasons we all have blind spots, some more than others. The only way we can address them or even think about them, is if our customers let us know. What Dale says is true also, unqualified criticism is useless, give us some specifics to ponder.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:20 pm

Regarding some of the excessively positive reviews: Sometimes I wonder if there is a bit of emporer's new clothes at work here, too. Suppose I pay $300 for a whistle, and loudly and publically voice my purchase, expressing great expectations...ooooo, it's on backorder, when oh when will it get here?!?!....then I finally get it and it's less than great. Not even complete junk, perhaps, but not the kind of transcendent perfection I expected from such an eagerly anticipated, pricey instrument.

First of all, there's a tendency toward self-deception. Wow, this isn't what I expected at all...but I wanted it so badly, and waited so long, it must be what I want. Wow, this sounds really great!

Or the everpopular I couldn't play the thing to save my life, but it's shiney and pretty and new! Wow, it sounds really great!

Second, given the tendency of people (such as myself) to voice their excitement about just-ordered whistles, there might be a certain amount of embarassment involved. No one wants to admit being taken to the cleaners, even to themselves.

So, perhaps some of us occasionally allow ourselves to see something that isn't there. Not me, mind you. Other people who aren't as smart as me. You know.

Tom

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:52 pm

Third it makes it darn hard to unload it on some other sucker next month.

CranberryDog · Post by **CranberryDog** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:57 pm

Yes, always try to cross your eyes and dot your tee's.

Peter Laban wrote:
Clearly even worse, though, is the number of people making just dreadful instruments, although I do think the "marketplace" eventually gets round to responding. I think a lot of people get enamoured with the instrument and have just enough shop skills to put out something that, you know, works, but just doesn't have ANYTHING about it that would justify it as a buying option. I have boxes and boxes of copper tubes that people have sent me that belong to that category.
It's only such a shame before that happens half the people on the forum get stuck with instruments like that. How many Serpents are rusting in drawers or are being used as tent-pegs out there? Be honest now.

It's good to have a choice though, once you separate the chaff from the rest.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:44 pm

Jerry Freeman wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, whistlemaking is not very well charted territory,

I strongly disagree.

The likes of Overton/Goldie, Abell, Copeland, O'Riordan, Burke, the companies who've made the "cheapies" for years and others have charted the territory quite well.

No sir, the "Uncharted Territory Defense" won't cut it as an excuse for poorly designed or poorly made whistles.

Get it right before you send it out the door. Every once in a long while something will get by you, but those instances should be few and far between, and at that point there should be no excuses suggesting you're all in a raft just behind Lewis and Clarke.......

IMO, of course.

Loren

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:54 pm

Dale wrote: I think some folks might want the freedom to be negative and to be protected from disagreement.

I could be wrong, but it strikes me that it may be more a matter that some people would like to be able to post negative reviews without suffering personal attacks for doing so, which has certainly happened here.

Loren

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:55 am

Loren wrote:
I could be wrong, but it strikes me that it may be more a matter that some people would like to be able to post negative reviews without suffering personal attacks for doing so, which has certainly happened here.

Loren

That's certainly true, as soon as you step out of the warm, fuzzy, cosy zone and make a realistic comment you're fair game here.

Pyroh · Post by **Pyroh** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:57 am

Peter Laban wrote:
Loren wrote:
I could be wrong, but it strikes me that it may be more a matter that some people would like to be able to post negative reviews without suffering personal attacks for doing so, which has certainly happened here.

Loren
That's certainly true, as soon as you step out of the warm, fuzzy, cosy zone and make a realistic comment you're fair game here.

Yes indeed, but why does it happen? Surely not because chiffboard is full of evil malicious beings

The thing is - let´s simplify the situation for A,B,C,D groups. Each group has their beloved whistle.

When someone from B says "hey, I had A whistle and it was not that perfect, it had this and that problems...". Since almost all reviews (on A,B,C,D) are positive, it seems that A are the worst, because even when rated realistically, they appear to be sub-par whistles. Even if A people realistically know their whistle is not perfect, still they´ll probably fight back with "all right, but B's are not perfect too - and C and D can join the "fight" with various ways and so flamewar can happen rather easily).

And there´s hardly any "good" way out of this, because still there will be people, with many (good and bad) reasons, who'll post overly positive reviews.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:27 am

Loren wrote:
Jerry Freeman wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, whistlemaking is not very well charted territory,
I strongly disagree.

The likes of Overton/Goldie, Abell, Copeland, O'Riordan, Burke, the companies who've made the "cheapies" for years and others have charted the territory quite well.

Overton, Copeland, O'Riordan and Burke had to figure out a great many things for themselves, and there's no workshop you can sign up for to learn their secrets. Abell's designs have changed over time (and some prefer the older ones) as well.

I probably know more from a technical standpoint about the cheapies than anyone else in the world, and I can tell you, there's considerable room for further development there (stay tuned).

Where I agree with you is, a maker should be as sure as he can that he's got it right before he goes into business. Customer service, quality control, and every clue, no matter how subtle, that comes from customer feedback or the marketplace generally, must be treated as sacred.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:18 am

Overton, Copeland, O'Riordan and Burke had to figure out a great many things for themselves, and there's no workshop you can sign up for to learn their secrets.

On the other hand the theory and the physics of woodwind acoustics is a well-studied subject and I would think the literature is extensive. I mean, in general terms none of the makers above has invented any radically new principles in woodwind making and I think Loren is right in pointing out the area is pretty well charted.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:25 am

Peter Laban wrote:
Overton, Copeland, O'Riordan and Burke had to figure out a great many things for themselves, and there's no workshop you can sign up for to learn their secrets.
On the other hand the theory and the physics of woodwind acoustics is a well-studied subject and I would think the literature is extensive. I mean, in general terms none of the makers above has invented any radically new principles in woodwind making.

Well, sure. Of course. But that only gets you part of the way there.

"The devil is in the details" very much applies here, and to a large extent, each maker's on his own to work the details out. I would say that radically new principles aren't really a factor.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:48 am

Ofcourse the devil is in the details but doesn't that apply to any craft? That someone isn't used to sailing them doesn't mean the waters are uncharted.
You're talking about skills-and product-development.