Paddy Fahey's Jig

[Cayden]

Careful, Jem...

Or as Seamus Ennis said 'Rolled off, like a good typist typing..'

I don't think we have the same understanding of jig rhythms, Jem.

[MTGuru]

It's the same sort of discussion as as the ending of jigs. The old players here would never play BGF G but always go BGG G and be quite particular about it. I have heard BGF G referred to as 'vulgar'.

Pure speculation ... But the F# -> G leading tone suggests a standard perfect harmonic cadence V(7) -> I. A staple of western art music that has carried over into every bog standard I-IV-V pop tune. So maybe it's the association with pop music that's considered vulgar. Trad musos are not immune to occasional reverse snobbery.

BGG G is less defined, so maybe considered more in keeping with the harmonic ambiguity that gives so much of trad its distinctive flavor.

[colomon]

Huh. Flipping through O'Neill's, it certainly is full of BGG G sorts of endings. I had no idea.

I'm interested in the "old players" reference. I see O'Neill's has "The Idle Road" ending the A part with BGG G2D. I recently learned the tune off of Peter Horan's latest CD, and he's definitely playing BGF GFE. At 82 years old, he's not exactly a spring chicken. Is there a regional component to this?

[Cayden]

Is there a regional component to this?

I was thinking of (West) Clare players.

BGG G is less defined, so maybe considered more in keeping with the harmonic ambiguity that gives so much of trad its distinctive flavor

I wouldn't think harmonic considerations and pop tunes would have come in to the thinking of the people I was talking about. A reverence for how the old(er) people had it and rhythmic considerations are more likely candidates.

BGG G is more rhythmically defined than BGF G

[MTGuru]

I wouldn't think harmonic considerations and pop tunes would have come in to the thinking of the people I was talking about. A reverence for how the old(er) people had it and rhythmic considerations are more likely candidates.

BGG G is more rhythmically defined than BGF G

Aha, that's true about the rhythm, a good point. And maybe in the end a bit of all of the above comes into play to some degree.

[jemtheflute]

I don't think we have the same understanding of jig rhythms, Jem.

Slightly flippant wind-ups aside (careful, Rob ), I doubt that, Peter. However, you obviously have some further insight here that for some reason you prefer archly to allude to as some kind of higher order mystery instead of explaining. In effect, you said the melodic difference has a rhythmic effect that would affect a dancer. Please explain. For starters, what sort of dancing have you in mind?

I've played plenty for social dancing - barn dance, ceilidh, call it what you like, and there they sure as hell wouldn't notice - they usually barely know the difference between a jig and a polka! I've never played for proper Irish set dancing and know little about it. I've been roped in a couple of times to play for step dancers, and they have just said "play us a ......(insert dance form of choice)", indicated a tempo and got on with it, not minding what tune it was or where that particular tune went melodically or rhythmically, so long as the pulse was right and it had the correct number of bars. (Also, to my mild surprise, they didn't seem to be bothered about starting on the As of a tune and finishing on the Bs, but would come in after one A and finish whenever their pre-established step pattern ran out....... I'd have thought that if they had a 32 bar set of steps they'd want to do them to a whole tune, with an extra A for an intro, or not come in until the start of the second run-through of the tune, or something like that....... Maybe I just haven't met any really good dancers? One of them was a fleadh prize winner, though.) But, obviously, that is a minute experience on which I would seek to build no claims of any kind of understanding, since clearly those were ad hoc, make-do situations.

So, given my acknowledged lack of high level and specifically refined Irish dancing, just how and why would the very subtle difference in interpretation of a melody, with some infinitesimal effect on the rhythmic balance of the tune such as we have been discussing, even be noticed by, let alone somehow upset dancers? Serious question. I want to understand and learn.

[Cayden]

Jem between your:

It's 6/8. Dubada dubada, whatever notes you put to the rhythm

your explanation why your version of Winnie Hayes' is different but equal to the one I gave and my perception of jigs (or Irish dance music in general) lies a gap that is unbridgeable in the confines of posts to a forum like this.

There's a world of good (recorded) music out there and some writing on the subject that is better than what I can give here, educate yourself.

I uploaded a little clip of Seamus Ennis talking about things like that (taken from a longer talk) : Munster Buttermilk

Also imagine what the Fahey jig I posted above would sound like rolled off as Dubada dubada and compare it to how it is really played. You'll find clues there.

[bradhurley]

Here's another jig for Jim's collection:

Eddie Kelly's:

http://homepage.mac.com/bhurley/.Public/EddieKellys.mp3

[Cathy Wilde]

I wouldn't think harmonic considerations and pop tunes would have come in to the thinking of the people I was talking about. A reverence for how the old(er) people had it and rhythmic considerations are more likely candidates.

BGG G is more rhythmically defined than BGF G

Aha, that's true about the rhythm, a good point. And maybe in the end a bit of all of the above comes into play to some degree.

All this is absolutely fascinating. Thank you guys!!!!

"Funny How The Brain Works" Moment -- I don't know "Winnie Hayes's" (I don't think I do, anyway, and a cubicle is not the ideal place to find out), but when I saw the dots earlier in the thread, my head sang it as a different-key variant of "Old Tipperary."

[jim stone]

Thanks, Brad.

More jigs, please. The jig monster be hungry!

[Liney Bear]

Here's another jig for Jim's collection:

Eddie Kelly's:

http://homepage.mac.com/bhurley/.Public/EddieKellys.mp3

Super, super playing! I'm gonna have to learn that one. Nice to hear solid flute players playing whistle, too.

[Cayden]

Here's another jig for Jim's collection:

Eddie Kelly's:

There used to be loads of names for that one , Martin Talty's is one I remember but Kelly named it 'The Meelick Team' himself.

[bradhurley]

There used to be loads of names for that one , Martin Talty's is one I remember but Kelly named it 'The Meelick Team' himself.

Yes, I keep forgetting that, and I should remember because the Meelick Team was a hurling team after all

I learned this jig from Éilís Crean, who along with her brother was one of Eddie Kelly's two students after he moved to Roscommon from East Galway. Kelly played box and fiddle; Éilís learned the fiddle and her brother learned the box. Apparently Kelly was very particular about the melody -- the B part is played differently each time through, a subtlety that got shaved off when people started playing it in sessions, apparently he used to get quite steamed about it.

[Cathy Wilde]

a thousand times

Wow, I'm among the guilty; have I been butchering that poor tune. I got it from the Moving Cloud and Dervish versions and have probably "elided" the B part even further in my scattershot way .... those B part nuances and "other than the obvious A" note choices would never have occurred to me.

It's brilliant. And as always, delightfully played. Thank you, Brad!

[Cayden]

I saw Kelly play (the fiddle) a few times during the 80s, once as part of a Comhaltas tour group dressed in one of those awful costumes they make them wear on tour. In fairness the 'Meelick Team' name has been around only for the past five years and I have always known the tune as 'Eddie Kelly's' before. I learned both the Kelly jigs off Dolores Keane's recording Sail og Rua at the time, Jackie Small playing the box there.