Flute Tone and Hearing Yourself While Playing With Others

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:55 pm

I've harped on about this before, but I think it's crucial to distinguish between volume and projection. It's up to the player to learn how to control projection, which is not directly related to volume. Of course this has more to do with others hearing the player than the player hearing her/himself. For that, wear a broad-brimmed hat, I suppose...

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:06 am

Julia Delaney wrote:Why are you called Weekenders?
And that lovely young girl is my daughter, Mary, who plays concertina. You old lech, you.

I think Weekenders might be referring to this!

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/589

Lightheaded Mike · Post by **Lightheaded Mike** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:56 pm

I've noticed that some flutes seem a bit louder to the player compared to others. At my session we have folks who play a Hamilton, a LeHart, Seery, M&E original, and I play a Rudall-style flute made by Jon C. My first flute was a Casey Burns std.
We swap instruments around. All of these seem to be loud flutes, but the Lehart is noticeably louder to the player. No idea why, but maybe it's the lined head? My flute is just a comparitively quiet to the player but is just crazy-loud to others (no matter who plays it) The Burns flute was interesting. Moderate volume to the player and nice and blendy in a session sound, but the feedback on tone was quite tactile. It had such nice backpressure that I could feel when pitch is going sharp or flat, or when close to breaking the octave. Probably makes no sense, but it was like a flute you could play well even if you were going deaf (or unable to hear yourself easily in session).
FWIW, Mike

Lightheaded Mike · Post by **Lightheaded Mike** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:00 am

Sorry, I think my description of the Burns flute should be "having a lot of resistance", not high backpressure. I think that those are two different qualities.

mike

Guinness · Post by **Guinness** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:01 am

Tintin wrote:...distinguish between volume and projection...

Projection is a actually poor term since there's no consistent or scientific definition. Sorry folks, no matter how hard we try we're not ventriloquists-- we can't "throw our voices" or somehow localize it to the listeners' ears so that it seems "louder", as the word projection would imply. Yes, projection can mean "penetrating" or "cutting", but then what do those mean?

Besides raw amplitude, a flute's loudness is largely dependent on:

1) The note that's being played (frequency). Human hearing is generally more sensitive to higher notes.

2) Harmonic content. A bright and buzzy tone is easier to hear than a soft, smooth, hollow, or breathy one.

3) Tuning. Play out of tune with yourself or with others, and there's a good chance you'll be heard. It's an old trick for the solo violinist to play slightly sharp relative to the orchestra.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:16 pm

Guinness wrote:Projection is a actually poor term since there's no consistent or scientific definition.

My mother, after walking into a large warehouse and finding that I was "somewhere in the back". Two running forklifts, a couple of trucks at the dock.

She called, I answered. The rest of the warehouse never got over "that old girl that does something with computers".

Naw...it's not scientific.
Yeah...she did college on an opera scholarship.

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:42 pm

Sure, we're not ventriloquists, but all the factors Guinness mentions influence how well one's sound projects, so projection seems like a decent term to summarize those factors. My point is, whatever one calls it, it's not the same as just volume, because it's possible to project well at low volumes, and it's also possible to project poorly while blasting away.

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:48 pm

I can hear myself play in the session but everybody says they can't hear me at all. I consider that a blessing since I'm so bad. I have a rudall-style flute.

The better flute player in our session can be heard above everyone just fine. I don't know how to get my flute to do that. He can get my flute to do that but not me.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:58 pm

With only a few exceptions, the "loudest" flutes I've ever heard in sessions (the ones you can hear from several blocks down the street, clearly through the din of fiddles, accordions, and pipes) were all Rudalls or Rudall style flutes. Hammy Hamilton playing his own flute is one of the exceptions that comes to mind, and there are a few others.

The key is to work on developing a focused embouchure. If you've got a big garden hose you can dump a lot of water on the ground in a hurry. That's volume. But if you squeeze the end of the hose so it's nearly closed, the water will come out much more powerfully and will travel a longer distance. That's focus. Way, way too many flute players buy a large-holed Pratten stye flute and brag about how loud their flute is. But their tone is so unfocused that all the decibels in the world can't help them.

david_h · Post by **david_h** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:33 am

The other day I chanced to get some spare time to practice, but in a small car with the windows closed. Painful on the ears, but I also chanced to have some earplugs - industrial ones designed to stop almost everything. It is amazing just how much that is heard when playing the flute must be going in through the mouth and resonating in head cavities. I wonder how much that has to do with the difference between what the player and the listener hears. And how backpressure (or whatever it is) effects that. Had me thinking back to a discussion from last year about possible mechanisms by which tuning the vocal tract can influence tone generation. And the one about wide-brimmed hats.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:40 am

A metal plate in the player's head can sometimes be used to enhance resonance.

pmcallis · Post by **pmcallis** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:54 am

Thanks, Brad, for your re-emphasis on the importance of "Focus" in projecting sound. By the way, do you have any practice tips on how to improve one's "Focus"?
Paul

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:29 pm

Way, way too many flute players buy a large-holed Pratten stye flute and brag about how loud their flute is. But their tone is so unfocused that all the decibels in the world can't help them.

so terribly true.
most don't have anything worth hearing.
trying playing well enough so that the others drop the volume to hear what you're doing.

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:57 pm

David Migoya wrote:
Way, way too many flute players buy a large-holed Pratten stye flute and brag about how loud their flute is. But their tone is so unfocused that all the decibels in the world can't help them.
so terribly true.
most don't have anything worth hearing.
trying playing well enough so that the others drop the volume to hear what you're doing.

Do fife players worry about being heard?

Sillydill · Post by **Sillydill** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:00 pm

If I may I'll try to redirect this thread.

We've discussed Pratten's sound being fat and Rudall's being focused before (numerous times).

I'm not talking about VOLUME!

The Healy and McGee Metzler have an intrinsic tone characteristic that is easily discerned under my ear. Thus allowing me to more easily adjust: pitch, attack, and phrasing.

Anyone else experience this phenomenon?

P.S. I.D.10-t - If a fifer is playing in a forest. Can you hear a tree fall?