Parochial or Provincial? The Poll

[jsluder]

Your poll options don't include my answer.

I had more, but the Poll Fairies put the kibosh on that.

[Nanohedron]

I didn't set up this poll just so I should have to vote in it. I want other people's views. Not mine.

You can always hit the View Results button under the "submit button", or log out as guests cannot vote, only view polls.

Oh. Thanks.

Man. I don't even qualify as ungeek.

[s1m0n]

I think that the point my quote of the Kavanagh poem is trying to make is close to the context you're running into. In about the middle of last century there was a concerted effort in Irish nationalist circles to establish the point that Irish art and culture of all kinds is just as good as any and inferior to none; that irish artists could stay home and create rather than going to London or Paris or New York, and that Irish subjects were perfectly suitable subjects.

Right around this time, the first genrations of bright working-class kids were beginning to graduate from University, after new policies in public funding of education made that possible. These were people like Seamus Heaney*, who really did make top shelf Poetry from Irish subjects. From our present perspective, with this and the world-wide interest in Irish music, etc. it's difficult to recover the inferiority complex that was once much more widespread.

*I don't believe Kavanagh was one of these; I think he was just a little older, but I could be incorrect.

[Nanohedron]

I think that the point my quote of the Kavanagh poem is trying to make is close to the context you're running into.

Thanks. I think I'm beginning to get a grip on the matter. I'm also finding that it ain't necessarily all that cut-and-dried, either, depending on perspective. I think.

[s1m0n]

But really, my question stems largely from the idea of "received pronunciation"....

RP is also about inferiority - this is one of the names for "BBC english"; in other words the highest-status english dialect--accent is (or was) the main marker of class in the UK and the subject of much snobbery. I doubt it still happens but in the past 'elocution record' sets used to get sold to working class people who wanted to sound posh. You sometimes see these show up in plays and novels as a symbol of class anxiety.

The North American equivallent used to be the Encyclopedia Britannica sold door-to-door; it too was social anxiety made manifest.

[Innocent Bystander]

As Em says, parochial has a Churchy connotation. But in the UK, (where the Church of England is the Established Church, and the Government chooses the Archbishops, and the Archbishops choose the Bishops etc), it's also an area of government. It's quite a small area. I live in Bourne End, and Bourne End is a Parish. It elects four (I think) councillors to the Borough Council.

http://www.wooburnparish.org.uk/

A Province, on the other hand, is a large subset of a kingdom. Think of the words of "A Nation Once Again":
"And Ireland, long a Province, be a Nation once again!"
Northern Ireland is still a Province.

Chris and Big Davy will surely explain to you what they think of the notion of Scotland being a Province. Wales is a Principality, but also, arguable, a province.

So in the notion of accents and received pronunciation, the local provincial accent would be Home Counties (pronounced "Haem Cainties") but the parochial accent would be South Buckinghamshire - "Sowf Bokinamsher". You couldn't distinguish Bourne End from Aylesbury in terms of accents. Maybe Henry Higgins could, but I couldn't.

[djm]

Another way you can approach this is to use the Google "define" utility. As I understand it, although you have polled on the relationship of "parochial" versus "provincial", what you were really after is the significance of the term "received pronunciation".

Using Google thusly:

define: "received pronunciation"

(NB: it seems to be important that you leave a blank space following the colon after the word "define". Use double quotes to include a string/phrase. Quotes are not required on single words.)

You can use the "define" tool to look up provincial or parochial, as well.

So what do we see? Parochial relates to parish, whether urban or rural, with connotations of being insular, ignorant of what lies beyond one's locality. From this we can see how this might relate to ignorance due to isolation in a remote, provincial location, but not necessarily so. And finally, your term "received pronunciation" means something that is not of local origin, but rather received from outside.

djm

[s1m0n]

And finally, your term "received pronunciation" means something that is not of local origin, but rather received from outside.

djm

Really? When I google your search string, all the results I get are about dialect.

define: "received pronunciation"

Definitions of "received pronunciation" on the Web:
The least localised pronunciation of English as spoken in Britain.
www.dg.dial.pipex.com/documents/docs1/bullock29.shtml

The pronunciation of that variety of British English widely considered to be the least regional, being originally that used by educated speakers ...
www.worldlanguageprocess.org/essays/lango/langog.htm

the regionally neutral, prestige accent of British English
http://www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/kno ... nglish.htm

(RP) is a form of pronunciation of the English language, sometimes defined as the "educated spoken English of southeastern England". ...
www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

the approved pronunciation of British English; originally based on the King's English as spoken at public schools and at Oxford and Cambridge ...
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Received Pronunciation (RP) is a form of pronunciation of the English language (specifically British English) which has been long perceived as uniquely prestigious amongst British accents.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received Pronunciation

[dubhlinn]

I think that the point my quote of the Kavanagh poem is trying to make is close to the context you're running into. In about the middle of last century there was a concerted effort in Irish nationalist circles to establish the point that Irish art and culture of all kinds is just as good as any and inferior to none; that irish artists could stay home and create rather than going to London or Paris or New York, and that Irish subjects were perfectly suitable subjects.

Right around this time, the first genrations of bright working-class kids were beginning to graduate from University, after new policies in public funding of education made that possible. These were people like Seamus Heaney*, who really did make top shelf Poetry from Irish subjects. From our present perspective, with this and the world-wide interest in Irish music, etc. it's difficult to recover the inferiority complex that was once much more widespread.

*I don't believe Kavanagh was one of these; I think he was just a little older, but I could be incorrect.

Kavanagh was a bit older than Heany..if you have to ask.
I have always been a great admirer of Kavanagh, Heany and the lovely Simon.
I find the first paragraph of the quoted post to be a bit far out..in a sense.
The second one is not a lot better.

I would study Kavanagh, Heany and modern Irish literature a bit more if I was gonna make a comment on things.

Then check out the politics...

apart from that I think you're a sound dude..

Slan,
D.

[Innocent Bystander]

Listen to any BBC tapes or videos from the fifties. That's Received Pronunciation. At least that's what it means around here. Maybe there's another meaning but it's a new one on me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/r ... 789126.stm

[s1m0n]

I would study Kavanagh, Heany and modern Irish literature a bit more if I was gonna make a comment on things.

I'm (no doubt) butchering the argument from an essay by Paul Muldoon in the Faber Book of Contemporary Irish Poetry (1st ed.); it's been more than a decade since I read it, but I doubt I got it as wrong as all that. I am reasonably familiar with both Kavanagh and Heaney.

[tansy]

parochial is long black robes and short plaid skirts.
provincial is fine French country cooking from the south of France.
to me.

[djm]

When I google your search string, all the results I get are about dialect.

define: "received pronunciation"

Quote:
Definitions of "received pronunciation" on the Web:
The least localised pronunciation of English as spoken in Britain.

Exactly. Least localized. Versus parochial or provincial.

djm

[ketida]

Well, it's obvious to me after reading the responses so far, that my first instinct, as usual, is correct.

No one really knows. Trust me.

[BigDavy]

Hi IB

Taken from the UK perspective then Scotland is a province, or arguably a group of provinces - Highlands and Islands, Lowlands and Borders.

England similarly could be looked at as a province / group of provinces.

If you take it from the CCE perspective then Great Britain is a province

David