Silver conical flute

[Terry McGee]

Hopefully we will see. This project is very interesting,
because there is at least the possibility of a
good sounding Irish flute that can be produced
relatively quickly and inexpensively.

Unfortunately, I suspect this won't be the case. Silver is now pretty expensive, and the processes needed to make a silver flute are complex and require some heavy artillery. But, as you say, let's see. I haven't even discussed cost with my industrial collaborator - don't want to scare myself off at this point!

Terry

[Aanvil]

how does a conical silver flute sound? (compared to a wood conical and a bohem silver)
sound is hard to describe, i know...

If made properly, I'd expect it to sound pretty much like the wooden conical equivalent, but be a little more responsive due to lower surface losses. So I'll know when I've got there!

Terry

You could always cover it with wood print contact paper!



Sounds like fun stuff Terry.

Can't wait to see and hear it!

[Suzie]

Hmm... I say to scrap the Indian-style flute idea and try this route!

[s1m0n]

Terry, you are indeed the very soul of retro-fluting coolness.

[jim stone]

Hopefully we will see. This project is very interesting,
because there is at least the possibility of a
good sounding Irish flute that can be produced
relatively quickly and inexpensively.

Unfortunately, I suspect this won't be the case. Silver is now pretty expensive, and the processes needed to make a silver flute are complex and require some heavy artillery. But, as you say, let's see. I haven't even discussed cost with my industrial collaborator - don't want to scare myself off at this point!

Terry

I take your point. My thinking went this way.
The copleand low D silver whistle's body could well
have worked as a D flute body, I think. Or something
much like it could have. It was conical and in one piece.

The whistle head could have been replaced by
a flute headjoint, just one piece, on the same slide
that the whistle head used. Two pieces to the flute. I figured,
perhaps mistakenly, that a flute embouchure
would not cost much more to make than a Copeland
whistle headjoint.

I actually got one of these whistles used for about 600.
I don't know how much it cost new but it seems to me
that for about that much money one could make
something like what that whistle would have been
with a silver transverse flute headjoint. Or suppose
a couple of hundred dollars more.

The question than was: how would it sound?

[Terry McGee]

Probably out of tune, although, who knows, you could be lucky. The taper of a conical flute is there to offset the fact that as we go up to the octave, we cover more of the embouchure, flattening the second octave. The taper is chosen to correct that for every note.

The whistle doesn't have that issue, as the window mouth is fixed. I understand (but don't know!) that the purpose of tapering in a whistle is tonal, rather than intonational, with perhaps some intent to reduce finger stretching from impossible to downright difficult. The tapering usually runs from one end to the other, whereas the flute is a subtle blend of cylinders and cones. If I'm right, it would be a remarkable coincidence if the whistle taper just happened to be the taper the flute would need.

But as I've indicated above, what I know about whistle acoustics could be written in foot-high letters across the thin end of a fipple. Perhaps one of our more fippulant contributors could tell us more. Indeed, if anyone happens to have a low D tapered tube whistle up their jumper and could estimate the inside diameters at top and bottom and the distance they are apart, it would be instructive to compare them with a typical flute bore.

Terry

[I.D.10-t]

The taper of a conical flute is there to offset the fact that as we go up to the
octave, we cover more of the embouchure, flattening the second octave.
The taper is chosen to correct that for every note.

I have never heard that reason stated before.

[highwood]

Cylindrical whistle second octaves have a tendency to be flat as well.

Maybe slightly OT, but related question is there a source for equations to calculate tone hole size and placement on a conical bore - the equations, a spreadsheet, a program.

Thanks Bill

[srt19170]

Maybe slightly OT, but related question is there a source for equations to calculate tone hole size and placement on a conical bore - the equations, a spreadsheet, a program.

No. I have a version of the Excel spreadsheet calculator that I modified to do conical bores, but I was never able to get Dr Hoekje to verify that my modifications were correct (and I now believe they weren't entirely) so I place no faith in it.

On a practical level, though, a straight conical bore essentially compresses everything proportionally, so it isn't hard to get a first-order approximation for the conical bore.

[jim stone]

Probably out of tune, although, who knows, you could be lucky. The taper of a conical flute is there to offset the fact that as we go up to the octave, we cover more of the embouchure, flattening the second octave. The taper is chosen to correct that for every note.

The whistle doesn't have that issue, as the window mouth is fixed. I understand (but don't know!) that the purpose of tapering in a whistle is tonal, rather than intonational, with perhaps some intent to reduce finger stretching from impossible to downright difficult. The tapering usually runs from one end to the other, whereas the flute is a subtle blend of cylinders and cones. If I'm right, it would be a remarkable coincidence if the whistle taper just happened to be the taper the flute would need.

But as I've indicated above, what I know about whistle acoustics could be written in foot-high letters across the thin end of a fipple. Perhaps one of our more fippulant contributors could tell us more. Indeed, if anyone happens to have a low D tapered tube whistle up their jumper and could estimate the inside diameters at top and bottom and the distance they are apart, it would be instructive to compare them with a typical flute bore.

Terry

Thanks, helpful and interesting. I continue to think that a possible
strategy for a silver conical flute is to make it in two pieces,
one a head joint, the other the body, the slide like a whistle
slide. POSSIBLY this might produce a good sounding tunable
flute while somewhat reducing expense. I do appreciate
that one would have to design the flute to play in tune,
not just draft a whistle to the purpose.

[Terry McGee]

Cylindrical whistle second octaves have a tendency to be flat as well.

I wonder if that goes away in the tapered version. It would be good to do some RTTA of both.

Maybe slightly OT, but related question is there a source for equations to calculate tone hole size and placement on a conical bore - the equations, a spreadsheet, a program.

I'm working on that too, with Assoc Prof of Physics at NSW University, Joe Wolfe. I now have a basic working computer model of the flute (conical or cylindrical) on this computer, but it still needs more work to allow us to design flutes from scratch. I suspect even after we get the model tidied up, it will uncover further philosphical matters needing understanding before we can churn out successful flute designs.

It is all getting a bit exciting though. In a sudden burst we now have RTTA which enables us for the first time to really know what's happening when we play. And we will soon have the ability to take big steps away from established tradition in the design of flutes. And we are developing the techniques for doing these flutes in metals as well as woods and polymers.

We don't yet know if any of this will take us in new directions as Irish flute players - we may find that where we've been is as good as it's likely to get. But even if we find that out, that's valuable. We'll know that we can just sit back and enjoy the music!

Terry

[dow]

We'll know that we can just sit back and enjoy the music!

But I thought that's what we were supposed to be doing all along.

[s1m0n]

Unfortunately, I suspect this won't be the case. Silver is now pretty expensive, and the processes needed to make a silver flute are complex and require some heavy artillery.

Does the kind of metal contribute anything to the sound?

[daiv]

that's exciting! do you actually have a clinton to work with and model?

i would love to have one of those.

[Terry McGee]

We'll know that we can just sit back and enjoy the music!

But I thought that's what we were supposed to be doing all along.

Sigh. There are still flute players out there who do not understand that their principal purpose for existance is to keep flute makers and repairers in a life of richness and splendour.

Looking at my current bank balance it becomes clear that there are a lot of such flute players out there.

Terry