Threading Materials: Pros & Cons...

[bradhurley]

This is probably obvious, but it really helps if the final bit of thread you use for fine-tuning the fit is a different color from the rest, so you can easily spot it and pick it off if the joints get too tight.

[dow]

This is probably obvious, but it really helps if the final bit of thread you use for fine-tuning the fit is a different color from the rest, so you can easily spot it and pick it off if the joints get too tight.

Hmm... Obvious to everybody but me, maybe, lol. I never thought of that. And here I was, patting myself on the back for being smart enough to use a Fly bobbin.

Thanks for the hint. I'll do that next time.

[Jon C.]

I use poliyester gutermann thread the finer the better. I also sometimes use a fine silk thread. Put a little shellac on the tenon before wrapping the thread to keep it from slipping later.

I looked for the Guterman thread here where I live, and couldn't find any locally. I did, however find a comparable polyester thread at the local fabric store The brand here is Trusew, it comes in any color imaginable, and has 200 yards on a spool. If I recall correctly, I gave about 50 cents for the roll I have, and with only one flute that has threaded tenons, I'll be using this spool for a while.

Oh yeah, one thing that you might want to look into is a fly tying bobbin. Looks like this:


I had one that I wasn't using, but you can pick one up pretty much anywhere that they sell flyfishing and fly tying supplies. If I don't use one of these, I end up with a huge snarled mess of thread.

That looks like a cool set up, no more burned finger tips! I do like to keep some tension on the thread, when I lay it down.

[Suzie]

So... Would the single-ply thread leave a harder threaded tenon and possibly cause cracking or would the singly-ply thread (ex. sewing thread [in my mind]) have any benefits?

[dow]

That looks like a cool set up, no more burned finger tips! I do like to keep some tension on the thread, when I lay it down.

Jon,

Thread tension is maintained in two ways. First by the spring action between the two legs of the bobbin that hold the spool in place. If you need more tension, then you adjust the tension by taking a wrap or two around one of the arms before you run the thread through the tube. Also, the good bobbins have ceramic coatings on the inside of the tubes, so that the thread doesn't catch and snag.

[jemtheflute]

So... Would the single-ply thread leave a harder threaded tenon and possibly cause cracking or would the singly-ply thread (ex. sewing thread [in my mind]) have any benefits?

I'm not sure if the trad linen thread is single ply......I suspect it is a loosely twisted 2-ply. Sewing cottons are a fairly highly twisted 2-ply at least. (You'd be surprised at the composition of some pretty thin threads if you started taking them apart!). It's not so much the number of plies that matters as the hardness of the twist. I don't want to overstate this though - you are unlikely to seriously damage a flute by using a harder twist, not quickly at any rate: don't get hung up on it. Sewing cotton is really too thin (and hard) to be suitable as a lapping thread, though - you want something about 4 times as thick - "button" thread is generally still too thin and far too hard twisted. The stiff waxed linen thread (sold on a card, not a bobbin) for stitching leather or canvas repairs is about the right thickness but far too stiff and very tight twisted - don't use it. Short of getting the bagpipe lapping thread, I reiterate; split down embroidery "silk" offers a good solution. Each of the 6 constituent strands is a medium twist 2-ply, together a little thicker than sewing thread: 3 of them together very lightly twisted is an ideal thickness and "consistency" for lapping woodwind joints, and well greased during and after laying does not (in my 20+ years of using it) present any (more than any other thread) risk to the flute if done properly. It is relatively soft and its one drawback compared to the linen is that, in a well used joint, the surface layers wear out in a few years - but it's easy and cheap to re-do, and better the thread wear away than the wood of the socket, which a vary hard thread might erode somewhat.

To answer your question more directly, I'd say a single ply that is loose twisted would produce a softer lapping, not a harder one, FWIW, though how tight you wind it also has an effect. A "hard" lapping is not in itself likely to crack a mortice - an over-wound (too fat) one would, whatever thread you use.

[Suzie]

Oops! Apparently I hadn't known (prior to now of course!) anything about thread (aside from the obvious) and now I know and I thank you. =)

Does anyone have any experience regarding darning cotton (or similar)? I suppose that this thread is the only kind I know somewhat about (ex. 2-ply, 4-end, etc.) and that my ignorance towards sewing threads, embroidery threads and etc. was a bit more than I'd previously thought!

For some odd reason, my brain was leading me to believe that single-strand thread (regardless of the ply) would require more layers to build up the tenons to the appropriate thickness for fitting and that the more layers the harder (in my mind) the tenons would end up being. *shrug* It's beginning to make more sense to me now though, thanks a bunch!

[jemtheflute]

Indulging in the digression onto thread structures, there is a good reason that even very thin sewing thread is plied: to reduce the tendency to twist/untwist. When you form a simple yarn by twisting fibres, the twist holds them together so long as the ends are not free to un-twist. However, hang such a simple yarn up free, even with knotted ends, and it will gradually unspin itself - faster if you put a weight on it. To resist this tendency, two or more single twist yarns are plied together, normally with an opposite twist - so if your single yarn was Z twisted, you ply it S twisted or vice versa. The resulting string/rope/whatever should hang straight without untwisting, even if the ends are not secured, provided the relative tensions of the opposing twists are balanced. Dissect a piece of ordinary cotton string or a twisted (not woven/braided) rope and you'll see what I mean. (Plying also increases the relative tensile strength.) By similar logic, spun yarns used for knitting and similar uses MUST be plied and not only to bulk them up and increase their tensile strength, but because otherwise (if you use a single ply, single twist yarn) the cloth knitted from them will twist because the uni-directional, unbalanced tendency of the twist-tension in the yarn to untwist will convey itself to the cloth/garment! It is, however, OK to weave with single plies as the crossing, parallel lay and interlocking of (multiple sets of) threads in woven cloth negates the twist problem as knitting/crotchet etc. do not.

If you take a piece of yarn - doesn't matter whether or not it is already plied - and twist it up until it starts to cobble (kink and bunch), prevent it from cobbling by tension but fold it in half and release the looped end, it will ply itself up in a balancing opposing twist - the tighter you twisted it one way, the tighter a helix the self-ply will form on the opposite twist - and it will stay like that! The smoothness and hardness of the surface of a spun yarn or rope depend on how many strands are used to compose it, their individual size in proportion to the bundle they form and the density of the twist (turns per length) - more strands give a smoother surface, more twists give a harder surface, etc.....

None of this matters in the least to lapping a flute joint, however! Just find a suitable loosely spun thread and get on with it. (And yes, I have done some spinning and weaving!)

[G1]

(And yes, I have done some spinning and weaving!)

Would that be in yarns?

[Ronbo]

(And yes, I have done some spinning and weaving!)

Would that be in yarns?

More than likely.

[jemtheflute]

(And yes, I have done some spinning and weaving!)

Would that be in yarns?

Both literally and literarily. (But more and better of the former, which ain't saying much.)

FWIW, during holidays in my uni years I twice span enough wool (on a treadle spinning wheel) to provide the weft thread to make substantial lengths of plain woven cloth - and yes, I set up the loom (with purchased warp thread) and did the weaving, then made the resulting garments. I actually got married in a cream magyar style jacket that was one of the products of the second time round. I've done simple demos of hand spinning wool with a spindle at fairs and festivals too and on one occasion built, set up and wove on a crude warp-weighted lean-to upright loom such as was used in antiquity. In my teens I used to braid (ordinary triple plait) rope out of old-style coir baler twine from the farm next door. Like most things with me, I've done enough (and thoughtfully so) to know what I'm talking about (or I wouldn't), but not to claim any high level expertise such as, in this context, a professional rope-maker or a technician for a commercial thread producer would have.

[Denny]

he's a hippie

[jemtheflute]

he's a hippie

Nope. Too young. It is necessary to have been a teenager in the 1960s to have been (or still be) a real hippy. I wasn't. (Missed it. Damn. ) Due to a sheltered and mostly rural, very provincial, absolutely not "with it" childhood I mostly wasn't even aware of all that until after.
Late 1970s hung-over post hippy arty crafty trendy blah blah - I'll plead partially guilty to that.

[G1]

he's a hippie

That would be me... muddy concerts, DC smoke-ins, coffee house performances, standing on street corners howling out anti-war protest songs with my Martin guitar and a Hohner harmonica strapped around my neck (whoops - which I still do vicariously from my studio and online). Most of my friends became Yuppies - and therefore: 'Them'. Peace.

[Lar]

I use poliyester gutermann thread the finer the better. I also sometimes use a fine silk thread. Put a little shellac on the tenon before wrapping the thread to keep it from slipping later.

I looked for the Guterman thread here where I live, and couldn't find any locally. I did, however find a comparable polyester thread at the local fabric store The brand here is Trusew, it comes in any color imaginable, and has 200 yards on a spool. If I recall correctly, I gave about 50 cents for the roll I have, and with only one flute that has threaded tenons, I'll be using this spool for a while.

-------------

I believe you are referring to polypropylene upholstery thread, which I have been using with good success.

I have found this at quilt shops in various locales. I bought up quite a supply as I have a number of flutes on hand to be restored.

The polypropylene will not soak up moisture. To give the thread a better grip, I do pull the thread through a chunk of beeswax before winding. Takes a couple of minutes, but really doesn't add much to the overall job. The wax gives a sturdy grip of the thread on the wood and on the layer below. I try to wind with no slack but not tight enough to put much pressure on the wood of the tenon.

Beeswax will not go rancid or harden with age as will some cork greases.

Once the wrapping is complete, standard cork grease can be used to lubricate the outside layer of the wrapping for the first assembly and then day to day as needed. The grease will not penetrate the wrapping significantly.

My wrappings have been stable so far for up to five years with no tendency to wear, compress (after the first two or three assemblies), or deteriorate.

No proof this would be the best way to do the job, or even in the top ten, but it has worked well for me on over a half dozen flutes so far.