Trying to find myself...

[dow]

Gad Zooks! Denny, where do you find this crap, err... poo, err...stuff???

[bradhurley]

There's "style" and then there is just crappy playing. Best not to confuse the two.

Doc

Easier said than done, though. I remember when I'd been playing Irish music for about 10 years I thought I had developed my own style, but when I listen to tapes I made of myself back then it's clearly just crappy playing. I think most crappy players don't realize they're crappy players, either they can't hear it or they don't understand the music enough to know. I think it's best approached with humility and patience: as you listen and play you will gradually develop a style based on your likes and dislikes. It will happen all by itself. Style in music is an expression of your personality, just as it is in clothing or decor.

People often reject styles they used to play, just as people's personalities change over time. Oisin MacDiarmada made a big name for himself with the very distinctive offbeat rhythmic style of fiddle playing he used to favor, but the way he plays now is more straightforward. Similarly when you listen to recordings of Martin Hayes as a teenager, then the same tunes played on his early Green Linnet releases, and then the way he plays them today you hear big differences. Same goes for Tommy Peoples. He's not the same man he was 30 years ago, and his music reflects that. Did any of these people consciously set out to change their style? I doubt it; it's more likely that their tastes changed or they heard something in someone else's playing that set off a light bulb in their head and made them go down a different path.

[Denny]

Gad Zooks! Denny, where do you find this crap, err... poo, err...stuff???

memory like a sieve, he has, some things just stick to the edges...

(probably some weird idea from the spouse, tryin' to figure out what to do with the, ah, extra material generated from her horse habit...luckily the project never got off the ground)

[Akiba]

To play in any music genre, one needs to build and learn from the traditions and players of the past. One has to be anchored in the musical form in order to be part of that genre. It's true in ITM, jazz, classical, forms that have large sessions and a common language. If one doesn't speak the language, if one cannot communicate, then one is not fully part of the culture. It's not just playing all the dots at a steady tempo, but how one plays the dots, e.g. the jazz groove is totally different from the ITM groove--same notes, totally different feel; maybe not a totally different language, but definitely a different dialect and different cultures.

[sbfluter]

I think I have begun to develop my own style. It's a cross between crappy playing and trying to inject my own variations into the tunes. It's the best I can do for now.

People out on the trail seem to enjoy it, crappy as it is. Maybe it's because they seldom hear any music at all.

Anyway, to answer the question more directly, I think you develop your own style when you are capable of doing it. I'm not quite at that point but am getting there. I mean, I can consciously choose to play a tune a certain way more and more. Less and less am I constricted only by what I learned to do the first time around. But I'm still constrained by my limited skill and limited understanding of music in general.

I don't worry about it too much. Maybe I will always stink but it gives me and even other people enjoyment so I'm pretty satisfied for now.

[jim stone]

There's "style" and then there is just crappy playing. Best not to confuse the two.

Doc

Easier said than done, though. I remember when I'd been playing Irish music for about 10 years I thought I had developed my own style, but when I listen to tapes I made of myself back then it's clearly just crappy playing. I think most crappy players don't realize they're crappy players, either they can't hear it or they don't understand the music enough to know. I think it's best approached with humility and patience: as you listen and play you will gradually develop a style based on your likes and dislikes. It will happen all by itself. Style in music is an expression of your personality, just as it is in clothing or decor.

People often reject styles they used to play, just as people's personalities change over time. Oisin MacDiarmada made a big name for himself with the very distinctive offbeat rhythmic style of fiddle playing he used to favor, but the way he plays now is more straightforward. Similarly when you listen to recordings of Martin Hayes as a teenager, then the same tunes played on his early Green Linnet releases, and then the way he plays them today you hear big differences. Same goes for Tommy Peoples. He's not the same man he was 30 years ago, and his music reflects that. Did any of these people consciously set out to change their style? I doubt it; it's more likely that their tastes changed or they heard something in someone else's playing that set off a light bulb in their head and made them go down a different path.

I think the best people are seldom if ever satisfied,
always trying to move forward. I don't believe you
were crappy at ten years. A bit of perfectionism
is a good thing, IMO.

I suspect style emerges
from lots of very small things done better and better,
ornaments becoming crisper, phrasing becoming
more simple yet more interesting. Also one seems
to hear the tunes better, understand the music
more intuitively, as the years go by. And that
certainly helps develop a style. A nice thing
is the sort of organic interface between hearing the
tune and developing technique, each complementing
the other. The flute is a device for helping one deeply
understand the music.

[bradhurley]

Oh yeah, I was definitely crappy at 10 years of playing! It's pretty awful stuff. And if in 10 years time I could listen to what I'm playing now I'd find plenty to make me wince as well.

For me, Irish music has been a series of unfolding rooms, each bigger than the one before. When I was young and cocky, I thought I "had it" after a few years and started playing in a band. I put my own stamp on the music and played it my way, and thought that was a good thing to do. But then as my ear developed I started to understand what I was missing, and it opened a door into a new room...I was a beginner all over again. And that happened again when I spent a week learning from Jack Coen, and again when I went to a four-hour workshop with Catherine McEvoy, and again when I had the privilege to spend time playing music with Benedict Koehler, the piper. It felt like that phrase in Amazing Grace -- I was blind and then I saw, but then later I realized that I wasn't really seeing after all. And I still feel that way, after more than 30 years of playing (I started in 1975).

This all sounds a bit grandiose and exalted, but really I think it can take someone like me, who wasn't born into the tradition and isn't a musical genius, the better part of a lifetime to begin to truly understand and appreciate what is going on in this apparently simple traditional music.

[ImNotIrish]

Oh yeah, I was definitely crappy at 10 years of playing! It's pretty awful stuff. And if in 10 years time I could listen to what I'm playing now I'd find plenty to make me wince as well.

For me, Irish music has been a series of unfolding rooms, each bigger than the one before. When I was young and cocky, I thought I "had it" after a few years and started playing in a band. I put my own stamp on the music and played it my way, and thought that was a good thing to do. But then as my ear developed I started to understand what I was missing, and it opened a door into a new room...I was a beginner all over again. And that happened again when I spent a week learning from Jack Coen, and again when I went to a four-hour workshop with Catherine McEvoy, and again when I had the privilege to spend time playing music with Benedict Koehler, the piper. It felt like that phrase in Amazing Grace -- I was blind and then I saw, but then later I realized that I wasn't really seeing after all. And I still feel that way, after more than 30 years of playing (I started in 1975).

This all sounds a bit grandiose and exalted, but really I think it can take someone like me, who wasn't born into the tradition and isn't a musical genius, the better part of a lifetime to begin to truly understand and appreciate what is going on in this apparently simple traditional music.

Brad,
Thanks for your insightful comments. I, too, have been playing for many years. I, too, was not born into the tradition. I, too, have recognized that certain elements were missing as I attended workshops by various players. Over the years, one thing that has been encouraging is the fact that people recognize my playing as Irish. I'm not saying that it's 'traditional' mind you, but I must have some of the elements that are present in the music for people to identify it as such. I have been a regular poster to the 'clips' thread. I do this because I appreciate the feedback I get from the other people on the board. In a way, I feel like the comments I receive help me to define a style of playing. Granted, there are blips (as recently pointed out by a board member regarding my latest post), but I'm not trying to put forth a perfect rendition of a tune. I am in total agreement with you that it will take a lifetime to fully understand this music. As it pertains to playing in a particular style, well, I just hear things as I hear them. I may linger on some notes, play with the phrasing, honk in unnatural places, or with greater frequency, etc. I have no problem adjusting to another's playing, but when I start something off by myself, well, I go with what's in my head. I'm not thinking, 'oh, yeah, Molloy (whomever) plays it this way...' Aah, I'm rambling now. Really, I just wanted to say that I agree with you that we evolve through stages, and there's no clear end in sight.
Arbo

[Cubitt]

One of the great things about playing traditional music is that you don't have to be particularly good. Good, yes; particularly good, no.

I liken it to food: A great recipe (like classical music) must be executed well, or it falls flat, whereas a peanut butter sandwich (like trad) doesn't require so much care and expertise to be equally as pleasurable an experience.

Some might take exception to comparing trad to a peanut butter sandwich, but I believe the comparison is apt. Many if not most trad players are not trained musicians; and flute players are probably the least of those who have had formal training. Nothing wrong with that at all. You can teach yourself to play flute and become pretty good. Good enough to please others who may have occasion to listen. I guess that's why they call it folk music, though trad stalwarts probably balk at it being called that.

[mutepointe]

I like what Cubitt said the best.

[Rob Sharer]

Yeah, but even a peanut butter sandwich takes good bread and good PB to make something you want to put in your mouth! Cheers,

Rob

[azw]

Cubitt's PBJ sandwich metaphor fits perfectly.

The one big disadvantage to having professional touring musicians and recordings of them is the risk that folk music will be seen as something that average people can't do. Isn't it true that before the advent of recordings, every community had its own musicians?


Rob, I detest most store bought bread and I'm picky about my peanut butter, too, but I'd be happy to take a bite out of a PBJ on loaf bread, as long as it had potato chips in between the peanut butter and jelly! Peanut butter is one of the foods I'd want on that desert island, along with a flute or whistle.


Back on topic, I've been wondering to what degree the styles we develop are controllable. I've heard "particularly good" players produce what seem like different styles, so I figure that style may be just another room, one I'm not yet prepared to struggle with. For me, any style I have now is mostly accidental, but I keep listening to players who have a style I enjoy. I figure that the people we listen to and play with heavily influence the style we develop.

[talasiga]

Folks will likely start huckin' maters* at me for saying so, but folk music is a living tradition. Those who are obsessed with it remaining static should stick to classical music. Beethovens 5th is the same every time you here it. Fig For a Kiss should be slightly different every time it's played...Just my two cents.

Play what you want, how you want. There are dozens of regional styles in Ireland so it's fairly obvious that the Irish could care less about what their neighbors think of their playing styles.

Doc

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet but I am joining in with this early post.

Beethoven's 5th isn't the same every time I hear it unless I listen to the same record over and over. Every conductor brings a different interpretation to it. It too is a living genre.

Even in Indian classical music, a student who perfectly copies everything his or her teacher does is pejoratively labeled a "parrot musician". If the techniques learned and the approaches imbibed do not serve an individual voice than the music has failed at the deeper levels. Also every performance by the same musician of the same piece will be different.

I was listening to the radio the other day and some maestro was being interviewed. (I don't remember who because, well I was in the dunny at the time). Anyway the guy was saying it is better to bring your own voice into the playing even if you can't do it that well than to copy someone well.

[cocusflute]

...it is better to bring your own voice into the playing even if you can't do it that well than to copy someone well.

Not where I play. What you said is just a cop-out, an excuse for not playing well. Here, when you're learning to play you copy your teacher. Who copied his teacher. You learn to copy well. Later on you have other teachers - often other musicians you play with. You learn new approaches.
But sacrifice playing well in order to have "your own voice?" Are you kidding? I'm just happy to play the right notes, breathe at the right time, phrase as the melody demands, and have good rhythm. I figure if I can do that my individual style won't matter. I'll be doing justice to the tune and to the tradition.

[talasiga]

...it is better to bring your own voice into the playing even if you can't do it that well than to copy someone well.

Not where I play. What you said is just a cop-out, an excuse for not playing well.
.........

Er, I didn't say that. Read my post again.