Middle D fingering

[mahanpots]

I was trying and with a bit of practice I can change at least those d's from the beginning..
I actually prefer the way it sounds when they are not vented...

By the way, I can't do much with this tune on the flute, but here it's an attempt played with almost every middle d vented:

http://audio.xanga.com/Bothrops/d51942321467/audio.html

Cheers,
Martin

Nice Martin. I'll be practicing those vented d's.

Michael

[jim stone]

Just to point out something I take to be obvious:
if you're passing quickly through middle D,
the non-vented D makes little tonal difference,
certainly not enough to trump the ease of the closed
fingering IF indeed it is easier in that
passage. I do try to vent the note
if I'm not moving quickly, however.

[mahanpots]

Just to point out something I take to be obvious:
if you're passing quickly through middle D,
the non-vented D makes little tonal difference,
certainly not enough to trump the ease of the closed
fingering IF indeed it is easier in that
passage. I do try to vent the note
if I'm not moving quickly, however.

Jim,
I get a cleaner, clearer middle D when it's vented, and what I was hoping to accomplish by venting in the passage E2cE dEcE is to have that "c d c" rise above the rest of the tune is a very clear distinct way. It's difficult to describe. But I was listening to another flute player and a fiddler play the tune a while back and that's what I heard. It was almost as if they were playing E2c2 d2c2. Maybe they were. Or maybe the flute player was able to play a clean, clear middle D, unvented. Every time that passage would come around, that middle D stood out clear and crisp. It was quite a nice effect. I asked the flute player recently, and he said he would never vent the middle D in the phrase E2cE dEcE. The more I think about it, the more I think they were probably playing E2c2 d2c2.
I search for other tunes that had that phrase ..cE dEcE ... in them and found several:
Jenny and the Weazel
Sporting Molly
Silver Tip
Repeal of the Union
Tempest
Paddy Taylor's
Jenny's Welcome Home to Charlie
Maude Miller
College Groves
The Dawn
The Hen and her Brood
Blackwater

Jem, do you know any of these, and if so, do you play them with that same passage, cE dEcE?

Thanks,

Michael[/i]

[bradhurley]

I just want to note that, despite the way The Coachman's Whip is written out in Vincent Broderick's tune book, The Turoe Stone, he in fact plays that passage with Bs instead of Cs.

So it goes like this:

E2BE|dEBE

I have two recordings of him playing this tune, one with other people (on the Turoe Stone cassette) and another private recording of him playing solo. He plays a B instead of a C in every case, in both parts of the tune. Since he's the composer, I'd defer to him!

It's a bit easier to play that way as well. You can even leave your index and middle fingers down on the bottom hand when you play the B if that makes it easier; it flattens the B a little but not enough to notice when played at speed.

[mahanpots]

I just want to note that, despite the way The Coachman's Whip is written out in Vincent Broderick's tune book, The Turoe Stone, he in fact plays that passage with Bs instead of Cs.

So it goes like this:

E2BE|dEBE

I have two recordings of him playing this tune, one with other people (on the Turoe Stone cassette) and another private recording of him playing solo. He plays a B instead of a C in every case, in both parts of the tune. Since he's the composer, I'd defer to him!

It's a bit easier to play that way as well. You can even leave your index and middle fingers down on the bottom hand when you play the B if that makes it easier; it flattens the B a little but not enough to notice when played at speed.

Yes, I saw that at Sessions.org. They actually have it with the B's instead of C's. I guess I should learn it both ways. I learned it from John Skelton several years back, and he taught it using the C's.

Michael[/i]

[jemtheflute]

When I looked it up on Fiddler's Companion, it gave three settings, one of which had the Bs and the others the Cs. Sight reading them through without at that point having listened to Michael's clip and not knowing the tune at all from any context, I felt the version with the Bs sounded rather odd - it may be what VB plays himself, but for me it works less well than the Cs from a musical point of view. I don't think either way is easier or harder to play fingering-wise..... the Bs version actually involves more finger jumping than the Cs as I would play it shown above.

Michael, only 3-4 of your tune list even look familiar to me as titles, and I don't think I play any of 'em, though I know so much stuff I don't know the title of, wouldn't count in my personal repertory but which I hear two notes of at a sesh and can join in, rarely knowing what it is but perfectly able to play it if someone else starts it...... so I might know some of them to play but not knowingly, if you see what I mean. If your Silver Tip is The Silver Spear, I can play that one.

[mahanpots]

...he in fact plays that passage with Bs instead of Cs.

I've been playing it with the B's and I now believe the version I heard the flute and fiddler playing was probably with the B's. It changes the feel of that repeated part of the tune and sounds more like what I was hearing, regardless of the vented or unvented D.

Cheers,

Michael

[mahanpots]

And here it is played both ways. Perhaps it's my technique. Perhaps my flute. But I think using the C makes the part of tune in question weaker to me.

Coachman's Whip (first with B, then with C)

Thanks Brad,

Michael

[MTGuru]

Michael, in your recording with the C's, you actually play 4 different and nice variations of that figure:

|E2 {c}BE {d}eE {c}BE|
|E2 cE {d}eE cE|
|E2 cE {e}dE {e}cE|
|E2 cE {e}dE (3BAG|

They all sound good! And the C's are indistinct enough in the figure at that speed that, honestly, it's hard to hear the difference from playing B's. As long as the strong up-down-up-down-up-down pattern emerges, I think you're golden.

FWIW, I learned Coachman's Whip with B's from a local session. And the two recordings I have both use B's - Frankie Gavin on Frankie Goes to Town, and Tom Doorley on Danú, When All Is Said And Done.

[mahanpots]

Michael, in your recording with the C's, you actually play 4 different and nice variations of that figure:

|E2 {c}BE {d}eE {c}BE|
|E2 cE {d}eE cE|
|E2 cE {e}dE {e}cE|
|E2 cE {e}dE (3BAG|

They all sound good! And the C's are indistinct enough in the figure at that speed that, honestly, it's hard to hear the difference from playing B's. As long as the strong up-down-up-down-up-down pattern emerges, I think you're golden.

FWIW, I learned Coachman's Whip with B's from a local session. And the two recordings I have both use B's - Frankie Gavin on Frankie Goes to Town, and Tom Doorley on Danú, When All Is Said And Done.

You've got a helluvan ear, there, MtGuru. Just kidding, as I'm sure you used some software. What you're saying is I'm all over the place, but it sounds good. But, I think I'll be switching to the B's, anyway. But who knows....

Thanks,

Michael

[jemtheflute]

Michael, I just looked out The Silver Tip, having established that you couldn't be meaning The Silver Spear as the tune most usually called that doesn't have the relevant figure in. The version of Silver Tip I found has got a cE dE cE pedal point passage in it, but the Cs are C#s (do you play naturals? - would work), which actually involves more fingerjumping than the C nats would, though I don't find that a problem either - still vent my Ds!

BTW, I think your playing of Coachman's Whip on that latest take is really good, but I'm afraid the tune itself doesn't do anything for me - not one I envisage bothering to learn - just personal taste, no criticism implied.

[ImNotIrish]

And here it is played both ways. Perhaps it's my technique. Perhaps my flute. But I think using the C makes the part of tune in question weaker to me.

Coachman's Whip (first with B, then with C)

Thanks Brad,

Michael

Lovely Michael. I think I am partial toward the first setting, but that's just a personal preference. Great job all around.

Arbo

[mahanpots]

Michael, I just looked out The Silver Tip, having established that you couldn't be meaning The Silver Spear as the tune most usually called that doesn't have the relevant figure in. The version of Silver Tip I found has got a cE dE cE pedal point passage in it, but the Cs are C#s (do you play naturals? - would work), which actually involves more fingerjumping than the C nats would, though I don't find that a problem either - still vent my Ds!

BTW, I think your playing of Coachman's Whip on that latest take is really good, but I'm afraid the tune itself doesn't do anything for me - not one I envisage bothering to learn - just personal taste, no criticism implied.

Sorry Jem, I don't know any of those tunes I listed. I was just searching the web for tunes with that pedal point passage and came up with that list. I googled "cE dEcE + abc." Sorry you don't like the tune, but glad you liked my playing. I usually play it at a quicker tempo.

Michael