Some whistle making questions - Wood finishing and boring

Grexrell · Post by **Grexrell** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:25 pm

Hi

I've been experimenting a little with whistle making and I want to take a step forward. But I have need some answers first.

First a little background information (Not too much, don't worry)
I have easy access to a garage containing wood working benches and alot of tools including but not limited to, A lathe, drill press, bandsaw, grinders, jointer, spindle sander, belt sander, hammers, drills, chisels and more.

I've seen the instructions online on making a PVC whistle, I've used it to make a low D out of copper. Well, its not 100% complete yet. The wooden dowel I used as a fipple block(whistle head plug) kept swelling. I bought a foot of Delrin rod, but the inside diameter of the copper pipe is a hair or two larger then an inch (Next time I'll measure instead of reading the side of the pipe) so my one inch rod rattles inside. Still thinking about the next step on that one.

In the meantime I'm planning on two other projects.
I'm going to try making a High (soprano) Whistle head out of copper pipe.
With it I hope to try playing two whistles at once. Based of the idea of one whistle acting as a drone. I tried using copper pipe connectors to split the air down two whistle bodies from one whistle head, but the overall volume was weakened far, far too much to be playable.

After that I want to try for a wooden whistle.

Most of my problems seem to be in dealing with wood.
When using wood for a fipple block whats the best way to treat it so that it resists moisture? Naturally I'm looking for something that won't land me in a hospital or under 6 feet of dirt. Also, what kinds of wood finishes and or stains could I use? Since I'd want a consistent look from top to bottom the stain has to be non toxic as well.

As for making a wooden whistle body, I'm really stuck there.
How do I drill/lathe it? I can turn a block of wood into a cylinder (although not a perfect cylinder, its a wood lathe, not a metal lathe) But How do I drill it accurately down its length? My dad has tried to do something similar, he lathed walking sticks, and then tried to drill a hole in the center of the foot for the spike, but alot of sticks kept cracking as the drill wandered a bit. Something I'd like to avoid on a potential whistle.

Any suggestions on what I would need? Some sort of drilling jig for the drill press or hand drill? I've seen some vague pictures of people using some sort of attachment for their lathe to bore out a pice of wood, but I have no idea what such an attachment is called, or how it works.

So any suggestions would be great.

I don't plan on making whistles for sale, all of this whistle making activity is aimed at giving me whistles to suit any situation (Trying to make a whistle suitable for practicing late in the evening with 3 other non-whistle players in the house), and well, fun. Plus I don't have adequate funds to properly fill out my whistle collection any other way.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:16 pm

Grexrell wrote:How do I drill/lathe it? I can turn a block of wood into a cylinder (although not a perfect cylinder, its a wood lathe, not a metal lathe) But How do I drill it accurately down its length? My dad has tried to do something similar, he lathed walking sticks, and then tried to drill a hole in the center of the foot for the spike, but alot of sticks kept cracking as the drill wandered a bit. Something I'd like to avoid on a potential whistle.

I'll try to give you some hints on the drilling question. As for the fipple, I used wood for a while but moved on to polymers quickly. Wood can swell and wood can shrink. You can coat wood with a variety of formulas or you can "plasticize" wood but polymers will work well without the effort of having to treat it. Maybe someone else has some suggestions.

As for the "boring" topic, there are a couple of methods you might look into. Gun drills are made so they do not wander as you drill a long hole. Many makers use those to poke the hole through the body, including me. Compressed air is pumped through the drill bit to clear chips and cool the wood blank. Some others have had succes using lamp augers first, then spade bits and then reamers to smooth the bore. There are a couple of links that illustrate these in use. The wood blank is held at one end by the lathe's chuck. The other end is supported by a steady rest with rollers that ride on the sides of the blank. This leaves the end exposed for drilling.

From Luc Verhoven's site:
http://users.skynet.be/fluiten/how.html

From Terry McGee's Site:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/making.html

And a video from the Canadian TV show "How It's Made":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiSW6LPchSc

Yes, I know that last one is a recorder but the issues are the same and it show a more manual method of boring.

Hope that helps.

Feadoggie

highwood · Post by **highwood** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:06 am

I haven't got around to trying plastic for plugs yet but have successfully and unsuccessfully used wood. It depends on the wood, and the wood I have used successfully is not readily available. I also tried a dowel purchased from a hardware store - it works except that it does swell/shrink so I would not do that again. I think any well seasoned hard dense oily wood should work. Or you go the opposite route untreated cedar (I believe) is used commercially (original Clarke whistle)

I treat them with shellac that I make up from flakes, shellac is very waterproof if made properly, better than varnishes or lacquer according to I believe it was a US government (USFS ??) report, not sure about superglues/plastic and is much more human friendly - shellac is actually used as a coating for food/medicines.

what a sentence! if it needs clarification ask!

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Thu May 22, 2008 12:32 pm

The "simplest way" to make woodwind bores is to use a Router to cut 2 half bores and then use epoxy to glue them together. simple sanding will clean the inside. There is no need to buy expensive "Lamp Auger Bits" for deep drilling. These bits tend to wander on deep bores. The seam on epoxied halves of walking stick flutes is invisible. Use a standard band saw to split the blanks in half. This will allow you to save the natural bark exterior features.

Tapered bores can be made in 2 halves by using a series of graduated "Scrapers". This technique was used in the Renaissance to make simplified Bassoons and Cornet horns.

Fipple material? I suggest using stabilized wood used in Pen Making (Pen Blanks). Stabilized wood is impervious to moisture. Once the fipple plug is adjusted, you can drill a small hole all the way through the side of the instrument and "pin it" with a wooden set pin.

Grexrell · Post by **Grexrell** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:38 am

Thanks for all your help.

I'm going to look into getting the proper accessory for the lathe, and buying shellac.
Until then I think I'll try Thomas-Hastays suggestion and router out a whistle body. Just got a new router table, so it should go fairly easy.

This certainly gets me started

Thanks!

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:24 pm

I haven't had any problems with wood for fipple blocks. I use wood from a tree I cut down, either cedar or yew.

I love my gun drill. It's an incredible labor-saving device.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sun May 25, 2008 6:41 am

Not to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but making a thin walled wooden whistle is not something you can easily do without making a significant investment in tools and time--- not something you'd want to undertake just to make one or two whistles.
The lathe you have access to is probably a wood lathe, but whistle making works better on a metal machine lathe which gives very accurate tolerances.
The basic steps are:
Turn your square into a wooden cylinder (easy, on any lathe)
Drill the bore: this is actually a several step operation including drilling an accurate pilot hole and then gundrilling.
Let the pieces "rest" for a month or more to stabilize
Mount the pieces on a steel mandrel and arbor-- this then gets mounted on the lathe so you can turn the piece to the final outside diameter and finish it.

From there, you have to install a tuning slide, drill finger holes, and fabricate the sound producing part of the whistle.

Again, I don't want to discourage you, just to have a realistic idea of what you're into. If you still want to proceed, I'd be happy to help you along.

Grexrell · Post by **Grexrell** » Tue May 27, 2008 7:38 am

Thanks brewerpaul and chas

Heres a small status report.

Since I can't invest the money into things like a Gun drill at the moment.
I've started down the road of the router. But with a small change.
I couldn't find a Router bit in the garage, or store that would cut a half moon (at least not anywhere near the size it had to be) I've split the pre-whistle block into 4 pieces instead of 2 and cut out a quarter moon into each of them. The pieces are gluing at the moment like 1+1 and 1+1 when they are fully set and sanded I'll glue them 2+2 to make the hollow bored tube. It'll be thrown on the lathe for final shaping after that.
I've got several whistles kicking around, and have access to the online hole calculator, so I'm going to use those to figure out the hole pattern and fipple.

I don't expect a professional whistle to emerge, but... it'll be fun anyway

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Tue May 27, 2008 2:40 pm

You can find "Milling Bits" that will fit fine in your Router. I also suggest Stabilized (sealed) wood blanks from Pen making suppliers. These come in fancy grains and are easy to "glue-up" for larger instruments. They also have acrylic blanks that mimic Ivory/Abolone Shell/Turtle Shell etc.

If you shave 1 corner from each block in a 4 block glue-up, all you need to do is ream the square hole in the center with a home-made shell auger. There is a chapter on reamers in Trevor Robinsons book "The Amateur Wind Instrument Maker" and here is a page on reamers.

http://www.recorderhomepage.net/tools.html#Reamers

Jetboy · Post by **Jetboy** » Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 pm

As for drilling a long hole:

I have had great success with a standard pillar drill mounted over a bench vise.

Mount your wood blank (1 1/2" - 2" square) vertically in your vise so it is centred with the tip of your drill. I use a 450mm long (16") 12mm (1/2") auger drill. You will have to drill the hole in steps drilling to the extent of the pillar drill ratchet then loosening the vise and moving the block up. (best leavve the drill in place) Just keep going till the hole is done. By using a 2" block, if teh hole turns out to be slightly off ther is still plenty of wood left. Mount this on a mandrel on the lathe and turn away!

Once drilled teh hole can be polished out using a piece of sandpaper fitted to a piece of dowel - again mounted in the drill, and finished with a piece of wire wool mounted the same.

Grexrell · Post by **Grexrell** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:02 am

Okay, its taken a while but the lathing is practically done.
Its still mounted on the lathe, but only to provide a stable area for cutting the fipple (which is next).

Any suggestions for that? The whistle walls should be around 1/8" with about a 1/2" bore (1/4" router bit on 4 pieces) Although the walls around the mouth piece are thicker.

I have a few whistles here, and a some recorders. It seems there is alot of variation on the angle of the cut in the fipple. Do I just take a chisel and cut down on an angle to meet up with the bore inside? Can I drill a hole first? (to make it easier to cut)
I'm guessing this is probably the step that will cause me to ruin the whistle.

Thanks for you help.

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:07 pm

Grexrell wrote:Okay, its taken a while but the lathing is practically done. Its still mounted on the lathe, but only to provide a stable area for cutting the fipple (which is next). Any suggestions for that?

I'd say it depends upon your head design. I use a three (head tube plug and outer collar), sometimes four part head design. Since I place a collar around the whole mouthpiece, I first turn the head diameter down to the inner dimensions of the outer collar. I cut the windway with a razor saw and establish the rough voicing window. Then I cut, file, sand, polish the labium. Then I insert the plug and place the collar around the outside and begin the fine adjustments.

I use an assortment of small files to shape the labium. I've tried knives and chisels but I feel more comfortable with the files. I am sure other methods will work.

I have made a couple whistles with two piece heads (head tube and plug)where I broached the windway into the head tube. Basicall filing the windway starting on the inner the bore wall outward and leaving enough material for the roof of the windway, just as in the most common recorder construction. Once the windway is formed, I then drilled small holes in the middle of where the voicing window would be. I squared that up with chisels and files and shaped the labium as described above. insert the plug and finish the detail work.

In both case the work piece is clamped to a work table as I cut away at it.

Is that the kind of thing you are looking for?

Feadoggie

Grexrell · Post by **Grexrell** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:00 pm

Hi

Sorry for not replying sooner...
I appreciate the help and advice everyone has given me and am hoping for a bit more

I'm stuck on the fipple still, after finding the time to make an attempt on it I think i made more of a mess then a fipple. (Luckily the whistle is overly long)
Based off my whistles, and some PVC whistle making instructions online, I found a set of measurements for the windway and etc.. that seemed to make sense.
But it didn't work. I didn't expect it to be perfect, or even very close, but I did expect it to make some sort of sound, even if a screech.
But I can't make it produce even that.

I started off drilling a small hole from the top down into the hollowed bore of the whistle and then cut down a slanted ramp/labium to the hole.
I then sanded down a piece of dowel to fit, and flattened the top a bit.
No sound, even if I cut the dowel/fipple plug down halfway, or leave it intact. the windway size big or small makes no difference. I then looked at my other whistle and noticed on one or two of them the the labium came down to the middle of the windway (cutting the windway air roughly in half) I then drilled out the inside roof of the fipple all the way to the labium in an attempt to reproduce that. The idea being that the air is possibly bypassing the labium altogether (the bottom being flush with the rest of the inner roof) that didn't work either.

I can cut the head off and try again on a lower section of the whistle. But I only have so much whistle and I don't know what I did wrong, so I'm all too likely to produce another mute whistle.

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but i don't know what.

I can measure the bore, fipple, and wall thickness dimensions and post them here if it'll help.

Thanks

OBrien · Post by **OBrien** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:57 pm

For that style of mouthpiece, you have to slant the bottom of the airway. Flatten it so that the "D" at the mouth end is larger than the "D" near the blade.

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:47 am

Grexrell wrote:The idea being that the air is possibly bypassing the labium altogether (the bottom being flush with the rest of the inner roof) that didn't work either.

I think you have outlined the problem above and come up with the obvious solution already. Once you cut the windway into the head tube, did you go back and replace the plug? You want a focused air jet hitting the edge of the labium. Too much air hitting below the edge can kill the tone.

I'd suggest starting over by making the labium as you have described. Then broach or cut the windway into the bore of the tube. Follow that by fitting a new plug, leave it round on top and de-burr the front edge. See what you get from that. You can further shape the plug after that.

Feadoggie