Latest ettempts at casting

[Rob Sharer]

Re the R&R PH crowns, I think the surface quality of the outer face of your castings is a nice footnote to the old discussion on how these were made originally that I linked earlier in this thread (did you peruse it?). Your (in themselves impressive) results kinda prove to my eye that the originals could not have been cast.

I seem to recall Chris Wilkes saying to me that they were indeed cast, and he had a particular process in mind. Can I remember the details? Not a hope. But he did say they were cast. I was visiting his shop with two patent heads in hand at the time, so it wasn't merely a passing comment; we went on for hours about the bloody things. Cheers,

Rob

[Jon C.]

Re the R&R PH crowns, I think the surface quality of the outer face of your castings is a nice footnote to the old discussion on how these were made originally that I linked earlier in this thread (did you peruse it?). Your (in themselves impressive) results kinda prove to my eye that the originals could not have been cast.

I seem to recall Chris Wilkes saying to me that they were indeed cast, and he had a particular process in mind. Can I remember the details? Not a hope. But he did say they were cast. I was visiting his shop with two patent heads in hand at the time, so it wasn't merely a passing comment; we went on for hours about the bloody things. Cheers,

Rob

Well Chris would know. I have to Patent heads in my shop at the moment, it was fun to take them apart, a hassle to put them back together!
This one needs to be heavy, to balance the foot.
from the left: my new RRC, the monster R&R, and two Fentums, Annvil's favorite flute "Eddie" and one of my other Fentums.

[Jon C.]

Cool Jon!

I see its ready for me to borrow.

Just need to finish the new short F key, then it will be ready!

[Casey Burns]

Nice castings Jon!

Actually - I wonder if Rudall's flutes are still Patented as it says on the original caps? Or if it is just the automatic cork/slide mechanism that they patented. If so copying these could theoretically get someone in trouble! I have a close friend whose wife is a patent attorney - she might have some interesting things to say about this and Robert Bigio would know if the Rudall patents are still active which I doubt. Something to consider though personally I wouldn't worry about it.

Some more modern artwork needs to be done in this media by us flute makers of the 1st Century so we don't look like hacks who could only copy the left over crap of several generations previously. How about stuff inspired by the 20th Century with the head of an Airliner coming out of the end cap? The Spruuce Goose - complete with its 8 propellors? Or Mt. Rushmore? Hoover Dam? George Bush and Saddam Hussein? One could have a lot of fun with this feature - once one masters the art of carving new original waxes. I might do this and have some fun with it! More fun than key making. These could be cast probably with my simple Clay Casting kit instead of lost wax (Actually, Precious Metal Clay might be the easiest method!). That old British Coat of Arm needs something - like John Cleese off to the side!

I consider casting keys from time to time but I find its just easy to sweat, fuse and pound out my keys on the anvil from solid metal and the keys are better for it - they can be bent a bunch more in the fitting process important to me for fitting the keys to my customer's hands.

I can't bend as much with cast keys before the crystals brake the key. Also the metal is softer and can be more easily bent out of alignment. If I do ever get around to getting castings made (I'd send templates off to a casting bureau) I'd probably oversize them a bit and then burnish the metal down to stiffen the keys. Or cast them out of a harder metal than Sterling (such as an 85% Ag 15% Cu alloy).

Someday I might do this but I'm trying to actually get away from keyed flutes more - the keyless ones are easier on my occasionally Lyme Disease addled brain! Shockingly, I want to indulge in some bagpipe making in the near future. That is a sign of how far the disease has progressed!

Casey

[Rob Sharer]

Re the R&R PH crowns, I think the surface quality of the outer face of your castings is a nice footnote to the old discussion on how these were made originally that I linked earlier in this thread (did you peruse it?). Your (in themselves impressive) results kinda prove to my eye that the originals could not have been cast.

I seem to recall Chris Wilkes saying to me that they were indeed cast, and he had a particular process in mind. Can I remember the details? Not a hope. But he did say they were cast. I was visiting his shop with two patent heads in hand at the time, so it wasn't merely a passing comment; we went on for hours about the bloody things. Cheers,

Rob

Well Chris would know. I have to Patent heads in my shop at the moment, it was fun to take them apart, a hassle to put them back together!
This one needs to be heavy, to balance the foot.
from the left: my new RRC, the monster R&R, and two Fentums, Annvil's favorite flute "Eddie" and one of my other Fentums.

Wow, what are you doing with the Bb foot rudall? Feel like copying those keys? I might know someone in need of a set of roller keys for a Bb Rudall footjoint...

[kkrell]

Near as I can tell, UK patents are good for 20 years (less if you don't pay your annual renewal fees). Note: Registered Design Right up to 25 years. Trademarks can last forever (if renewed every 10 years). Copyright is Life + 70 years, although Broadcast & sound recordings limited to 50 years, Typographical Arrangement to 25 years.

I believe U.S. Patents are 17 years.

So, one could replicate a R&R Patent Head (except perhaps the design of the end cap, if the name is still trademarked), or use it as a stepping stone to a new product. However, due to the prior art, any new result may or may not be patentable itself, depending on the design or process. A new process (such as tooling) may be patentable.

Kevin Krell

[Jon C.]

Nice castings Jon!

Actually - I wonder if Rudall's flutes are still Patented as it says on the original caps? Or if it is just the automatic cork/slide mechanism that they patented. If so copying these could theoretically get someone in trouble! I have a close friend whose wife is a patent attorney - she might have some interesting things to say about this and Robert Bigio would know if the Rudall patents are still active which I doubt. Something to consider though personally I wouldn't worry about it.

Some more modern artwork needs to be done in this media by us flute makers of the 1st Century so we don't look like hacks who could only copy the left over crap of several generations previously. How about stuff inspired by the 20th Century with the head of an Airliner coming out of the end cap? The Spruuce Goose - complete with its 8 propellors? Or Mt. Rushmore? Hoover Dam? George Bush and Saddam Hussein? One could have a lot of fun with this feature - once one masters the art of carving new original waxes. I might do this and have some fun with it! More fun than key making. These could be cast probably with my simple Clay Casting kit instead of lost wax (Actually, Precious Metal Clay might be the easiest method!). That old British Coat of Arm needs something - like John Cleese off to the side!

I consider casting keys from time to time but I find its just easy to sweat, fuse and pound out my keys on the anvil from solid metal and the keys are better for it - they can be bent a bunch more in the fitting process important to me for fitting the keys to my customer's hands.

I can't bend as much with cast keys before the crystals brake the key. Also the metal is softer and can be more easily bent out of alignment. If I do ever get around to getting castings made (I'd send templates off to a casting bureau) I'd probably oversize them a bit and then burnish the metal down to stiffen the keys. Or cast them out of a harder metal than Sterling (such as an 85% Ag 15% Cu alloy).

Someday I might do this but I'm trying to actually get away from keyed flutes more - the keyless ones are easier on my occasionally Lyme Disease addled brain! Shockingly, I want to indulge in some bagpipe making in the near future. That is a sign of how far the disease has progressed!

Casey

I think the queen would be more upset, about using the Royal seal then breaking any 150 year old patents...
If you anneal the cast keys and then harden them, I use a convection oven for this, 500 deg for one hour. they are strong and durable. They have better sterling alloys now, like Argentium, that has a better Rockwell hardness. I was also looking at some bronze alloys I might use, as silver keeps getting more and more expensive.
The bagpipe playing might kill the lyme's disease! All those screeching notes...

[Jon C.]

I seem to recall Chris Wilkes saying to me that they were indeed cast, and he had a particular process in mind. Can I remember the details? Not a hope. But he did say they were cast. I was visiting his shop with two patent heads in hand at the time, so it wasn't merely a passing comment; we went on for hours about the bloody things. Cheers,

Rob

T
Well Chris would know. I have to Patent heads in my shop at the moment, it was fun to take them apart, a hassle to put them back together!
This one needs to be heavy, to balance the foot.
from the left: my new RRC, the monster R&R, and two Fentums, Annvil's favorite flute "Eddie" and one of my other Fentums.

Wow, what are you doing with the Bb foot rudall? Feel like copying those keys? I might know someone in need of a set of roller keys for a Bb Rudall footjoint...

hat might be a little much, trying to copy that work! Just polishing them was a major task.

[jemtheflute]

Love Jon's pics as usual. That Bb foot R&R!!!!!!! Yummy.

Re: the Patent Head endcaps, so far as I know it was indeed just the PH mechanism that was patented - in all other respects the flutes were "normal".

I haven't found time to see about shifting some of that old Woodenflute/R&R Yahoo Group discussion here as previously suggested in this thread, sorry. It is on David Migoya's R&R Yahoo Group pages - I don't know if you have to be a member to read them, though you certainly do to contribute. Here's the link again. (I've just checked - you do have to be a member to access the archive there, I'm afraid.) The contributors included Robert Bigio and Terry McGee and the consensus was that the original endcaps were most likely struck like coins with engraved steel dies, very possibly in a hydraulic press. There are no signs whatever on the insides of the cups to suggest they were cast, and indeed the presence of a negative, not fully detailed version of the exterior embossed design supports the stamping theory, even if the blank of the crown cup itself was cast (unlikely/unnecessary).

I haven't ever discussed the technicalities of the manufacture of these with Chris Wilkes, but I'm hoping to go to visit him sometime in the next couple of months and will try to remember to ask for his current opinion.

[Rob Sharer]

The contributors included Robert Bigio and Terry McGee and the consensus was that the original endcaps were most likely struck like coins with engraved steel dies, very possibly in a hydraulic press. There are no signs whatever on the insides of the cups to suggest they were cast, and indeed the presence of a negative, not fully detailed version of the exterior embossed design supports the stamping theory, even if the blank of the crown cup itself was cast.

For what it's worth, my one does not exhibit the negative version of the design on the inside at all. In fact, there's a different insignia, which at present I can't quite make out. I'll have a closer look later. Otherwise, the only marks on the inside are turning marks. I confess, it does have a bit of the coin about it from an aesthetic standpoint....maybe Chris did mean only the blanks were cast. Additionally, maybe different processes were used at different times, since it sounds like there are caps out there which exhibit different features on the inside. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Rob, can you post pics of yours, inside and out? I'll do mine...... And what serial # is yours? As you say, the process may have changed over time. However, another point made in that 2005 discussion was that the expense of getting steel dies made made it unlikely that they would have changed the design after first commissioning the dies unless they really had to (e.g. legal requirements). Also that this specialist silver smithing was very likely out-sourced. The "grip" designs on the exterior side walls of the cups and the depth of those walls certainly varied from time to time or flute to flute.

[Ro3b]

Nice castings Jon!
Some more modern artwork needs to be done in this media by us flute makers of the 1st Century so we don't look like hacks who could only copy the left over crap of several generations previously. How about stuff inspired by the 20th Century with the head of an Airliner coming out of the end cap? The Spruuce Goose - complete with its 8 propellors? Or Mt. Rushmore? Hoover Dam? George Bush and Saddam Hussein?

I've always wanted a flute endcap with a bottle opener, myself.

[Rob Sharer]

Rob, can you post pics of yours, inside and out? I'll do mine...... And what serial # is yours? As you say, the process may have changed over time. However, another point made in that 2005 discussion was that the expense of getting steel dies made made it unlikely that they would have changed the design after first commissioning the dies unless they realy had to (e.g. legal requirements). Also that this specialist silver smithing was very likely out-sourced. The "grip" designs on the exterior side walls of the cups and the depth of those walls certainly varied from time to time or flute to flute.

I'll try to take some pix, but the stamp on the inside is very hard to read. It does seem to be the name of another firm besides R&R. Half of it might be "T. Bidde," if I'm reading it aright. Silver firm called T. Bidde & Co.? The other main word looks like it ends with "ry," four letters.

John G. has the body, so I don't have the s/n handy. Migoya knows it; it's in the 5000's.

[Casey Burns]

Hi Jon,

I've considered that Argentinium silver - its a little more expensive per ounce. I don't mind the tarnish but for fusing keys it works a little better.

Michael Hubbert told me of the heat treating of the silver casts and I have heard that in use in the regular flute making industry. However - you might do a run of test pieces to see if this approach is better than burnishing. At least in steel, such heat treatment promotes crystal growth. While a crystalline structure might provide stiffness it may also provide a place for a metal crack to propogate which will lead to failure (most likely 100 years from now). I have seen this type of failure in a few 18th century flutes with both cast keywork.

Casey

[Denny]

Nice castings Jon!
Some more modern artwork needs to be done in this media by us flute makers of the 1st Century so we don't look like hacks who could only copy the left over crap of several generations previously. How about stuff inspired by the 20th Century with the head of an Airliner coming out of the end cap? The Spruuce Goose - complete with its 8 propellors? Or Mt. Rushmore? Hoover Dam? George Bush and Saddam Hussein?

I've always wanted a flute endcap with a bottle opener, myself.

well, if you would quit buyin' the Swiss Army Party Knife in camo...