Inquiries; Begginer in this whole flute playing bizz

Trip- · Post by **Trip-** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:40 pm

Hello all,
I've just got my first ever flute (5 days ago) - a really nice Sweetheart blackwood D.
Keyless of course

I've been a whistler for a while now (~5 years), started thinking that maybe a flute would be a nice choice to progress my 'instrumental' control... kind of.

(I've been reading the forum for a while now, trying to find answers to my questions, using the search engine.)

I'm begining with this flute, no teachers around for this thing - so I'm going to do it on my own (like with the whistles) and probably end up with a few bad habbits to live with in the future.
I am standing with the flute, although I should play more sitting down.
The holding; I've read here many posts about how piper's grip is bad/good and how shoulder resting is bad/good, but that's only way I can make a sound out of this instrument. I place it on my shoulder, even though I can't find the right place to blow nor the right blowing technique - somehow sound starts coming and I can play a tune! Without the shoulder, playing G C# G C# would end up with a broken nose after the flute is hitting it from below

I practice everyday for a few hours, the normal grip is a pain to me, piper's grip is a blessing. The first time I tried the shoulder rest thing, my neck had huge pains, after a few days now doing it over and over - my neck hurts less and less - I wonder if it means that I can teach myself to make that area naturally relaxed. This would be a question to you guys, those who play it on the shoulder.

Another thing, the embouchure.
God knows I tried 1000 different angles, positions, blowing hard, blowing soft, etc. And if I finally found some nice position, I would never find it for the second time, although I'm dead sure I remembered it correctly. Then I'm starting to wonder if it was the right position in the first place, because the tone is not really loud and clear. And that thing with the second octave G A B... After blowing so hard my head was doing flipups almost knocking myself on the ground.
I think it's a thing with how I'm blowing, what I'm doing with my lips - something must be wrong. Am I supposed to make that duck-shape with my lips?

I know that the best way is to learn from somebody, but I can do that only from someone in a session, which I rarelly attend. I will for sure ask someone next time I'm there. (None play piper's grip shoulder obviously)

I'll much appreciate any input from you,
will continue practicing because that's the only way to perfect...

Thank you,
Philip

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:07 am

In all honesty, I strongly suggest that you get at least a few lessons from an experienced player. Now, you may not have access to an ITM flute player, but the odds are good that you could find a Boehm flute player somewhere in your neighborhood, near to you. Of course, the ITM flute and the Boehm flute are two quite different flutes, but they do have some things in common. For instance, their embouchures are similar, and so the way their embouchures are played are similar, too, not exactly the same, but similar. Also, with the exception of piper's grip, the ITM flute and the Boehm flute can be held in similar ways, and it's important to have a good grip technique.

There is much that you could teach yourself, but taking a few lessons, just to get started, could be a very worthwhile thing to do.

Thomaston · Post by **Thomaston** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:09 am

I'd be really interested in any advice, too. For one, my left hand is cramping a lot. Will this go away, or should I use piper's grip? I already use it for the right hand, but I lose a lot of dexterity I try it with the left, too.

bepoq · Post by **bepoq** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:35 am

My opinions on things - hope you find something useful in here.

I'd watch yourself on the flute on shoulder neck issue - short and medium term, no bother, but long term it might (not definitely, but very possibly) cause problems (yes I know several great players who play that way, a few of the them personally, so kindly don't all jump on me with "but Mike McGoldrick plays that way and he does alright etc. etc.")- Gary Shannon was having some last I spoke to him (which was some years ago now in fairness).

As to the embouchure, I really think that the silver flute embouchure for classical music is quite different from that used for trad, as I find when comparing notes (or just receiving appalled comments) from my boehm flute playing acquaintances in the music dept. here. The goal (sound) being aimed for is entirely different, and that really affects the embouchure.

No duck shape - we tighten down our lips (even the center, unlike the silver flute lot) and make the embouchure three point hole between our bottom lip, our top lip and the far edge of the flute embouchure as small as possible (also unlike the silver flute mob). Try pushing out your lips very very very slightly when attempting the second octave - the idea is to manage that octave without blowing any harder, although managing it without blowing harder at all takes a wee while as practicing in the lip muscles doesn't come quickly. Give yourself time with this - the strong tone doesn't come quickly because it takes a while to get your lips in shape.

This may also account for you liking the shoulder grip. Are you pressing the flute hard against your lips at all? If so, that can serve to some extent in place of a stable embouchure and strengthen your tone more quickly than it might otherwise come - hard to resist. I would advise against it though (pressing), and unless you are totally sold on it, against that shoulder grip too, although not because you can't play great music that way - just on grounds of possible future back/neck problems.

Piper's grip - sure, though without the shoulder it often requires the left thumb to be put on the far side of the flute rather than underneath so as to not hit you in the nose if you slip and so as to counterbalance the right hand's slight pressure outward and the lower lip contact - these hold the flute in place - though they should do so with light balancing pressure. The piper's grip and the shoulder rest do not rely on each other by the way.

I would advise learning to play sitting down - indispensable if you are ever to join in a session, but most frequent otherwise - what greater pleasure than to sit in the kitchen with a nice cup of tea (or twelve) playing the afternoon away? (rhetorical - I'm sure some of you have greater pleasures)

I would definitely go along with Cork on the lesson idea - even if it is just a few. Worth paying someone for a batch of 4 lessons to send you on your way for example (letting them know it is for a send off package of lessons and paying them a touch extra for that if it seems right), particularly if you do not regularly attend a session where you could get bits and bobs of advice.

Good luck with it, and patience, at least at the beginning - whichever way you choose, it will come.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:20 am

Hi and welcome, Philip/Trip.

Much good sense in the previous posts with which I generally concur. One tip that hasn't been mentioned is exploring your embouchure as a beginner with just the headjoint - standard practice in classical lessons and a good idea regardless of type of flute or aspired-to playing style. Working on basic tone production with the headjoint in front of a mirror is a very good way to discover what you are doing and what does or doesn't work. Sit or stand up nice and straight and hold each end of the head between thumb and first 2 fingers so it's secure and you have plenty of control to experiment with rolling it in or out. This also gets you away from hassling yourself over the harder to obtain lower notes or about fingering at all while you fix the basic requirement - actually generating a tone consistently. It will also stop you worrying about holding the flute (or dropping it) and from resting the top end on your shoulder! By the time you are ready to reassemble the flute, putting it on your shoulder will probably feel strange/unnecessary.

Whatever style of embouchure you are working on, ITM or Classical, it takes time to work out how to get the appropriate formation of your particular face muscles, and then to establish that in both conscious and subconscious memory. In any case, most of us are forever working on and adapting our embouchures! To arrive at a point where you can pick a flute up, put it to your face and just go takes a lot of work and time. You also have to learn to breathe properly to supply both the instrument and your own body without hyperventilating or running short. Blowing hard is not the way! Then there's all the stuff about supporting the airstream, having an open and relaxed air column and torso, etc.......

Finally for now, when you can with reasonable consistency get a tolerably focussed tone from your headjoint and are ready to assemble the whole instrument and explore it, you need to learn to hold it/support it (NOT "grip" it!) so that (fear of) dropping it isn't an issue. If you don't do so, you will progress to "death grip", cramp. RSIs etc, and more importantly, you will not be able to move your fingers fluently to actually play the music! Whatever style of hold ("standard/Rockstro/classical" or "pipers'" or a hybrid or Rob's "Irish") you end up with, there are basic principles to work through to set it up to be stable and secure as a foundation for the rest of your playing. I wrote up a summary of how to do it for "standard" hold recently for a thread on The Session (towards the end of the thread) - a collection and editing of various posts I've made here and elsewhere. (I'll pm it to you.) If you opt for one of the other hold styles, you still need to take the same approach to establishing it, though mechanical details will be different.

Best of luck!

kennychaffin · Post by **kennychaffin** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:14 am

Philip, thanks for the questions and the posting. Good advice above which I too am interested in as I just received my Tipple flute on Monday and am just beginning to make noise with it. It sounds to me like the main thing you should focus on is relaxing.

It takes some time to learn the embouchure and breathing as well as holding the instrument. The thing I'm finding most difficult is the hole spacing in that it is much more difficult to stretch (or use the pipers grip) than I'd thought (given my years as a clarinet player and my limited whistle experience). I tend to do the death-grip thing and/or the stretching is cramping my hands (the right one in particular and the left thumb). I'm actually not using my RH ring finger, but the little finger in it's place. I'm thinking that a standard conical bore irish flute must be easier in the fingering department (maybe someone can confirm that for me as this is my only experience with Irish/simple system flute).

I am able to play the notes and ever a pathetic attempt at Down By the Sallie Gardens which I've learned on the whistle, but very pathetic.

I am loving the sound/range of the flute though, but wondering if I shouldn't have just gone straight to a standard/more expensive conical bore flute?

KAC

Bothrops · Post by **Bothrops** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:58 am

Hi Philip,

Does Mordechai Gordon live near you?

He told me that he tried a Sweetheart flute some days ago, maybe it was your flute?
Anyways, he was delighted, and wanted to buy one. Maybe you could contact him and ask for a few quick lessons, he's an irish flute player too.

LorenzoFlute · Post by **LorenzoFlute** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:13 am

I place it on my shoulder

no don't! piper's grip is fine (i use it too) but don't place the flute on your shoulder if you care about your neck!

I'm actually not using my RH ring finger, but the little finger in it's place

not a good idea. i don't know what grip you use, but i belive that if you have troubles with the stretch on the right hand, putting your fingers flat on the holes (piper's grip on the right hand) should solve any problem.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:41 am

kennychaffin wrote: I'm thinking that a standard conical bore irish flute must be easier in the fingering department (maybe someone can confirm that for me as this is my only experience with Irish/simple system flute).

I can confirm that for you. I have a Tipple, and have played a few conicals, including Trip's Sweetheart. The Tipple requires a bit more stretch than the conicals, but is very playable for someone with normal-sized hands. A bit of stretching before during and after practicing will get you there soon enough. And staying relaxed is very important. Ten minutes of smooth, relaxed practice is always better than hours of struggle, (which can actually do damage, if you're not careful)!

drewr · Post by **drewr** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:41 am

I also went through very much the same thing when I bought my first flute after playing whistle for a few months. I had the same neck and hand pain and went through the usual trial-and-error effort of embouchure formation. Don't give up. The pain will eventually subside and the embouchure will work out as your body and ears get used to what's going on.

I'd recommend working as hard as you can on traditional/orthodox ways to hold the flute and cover the tone holes. Many players employ a piper's grip (is spite of its bad press), but I don't think anyone would encourage resting the end of the flute on your shoulder. You're just asking for long-term neck pain by doing that, and not all flutes have the same length from the embouchure hole to the end of the flute. By getting too accustomed to holding your flute like this, when you move on to something different you may very well find you can't play at all.

We've all been through this and starting out is often discouraging and painful. Stick with it and try to play as "normally" as possible. Use a mirror and read everything you can find. Try playing actual tunes as opposed to one static note at a time. You might get a decent sound from only one or two notes in a tune at first (the rest of the notes being just hisses), but eventually you'll get a decent sound from all the notes. Yes, the lower (D, E, F) notes will come last.

Coming from a 5-year background in whistle playing you should be able to form a reasonable embouchure and belt out a tune or two in a couple of weeks of practice. Don't give up.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:02 am

separate the issues

don't use the holes or
just use the headjoint, by itself, until you can get consistent and reasonable sound out of the thing

read
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=331284
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=536493
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=625601
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=684492
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=688529
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=710051
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=747269

no....plenty more....got tired of it, he did
search for left hand position/Search for all terms/Flute Forum/Posts

kennychaffin · Post by **kennychaffin** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:19 am

Othannen wrote:
I'm actually not using my RH ring finger, but the little finger in it's place
not a good idea. i don't know what grip you use, but i belive that if you have troubles with the stretch on the right hand, putting your fingers flat on the holes (piper's grip on the right hand) should solve any problem.

Why's it not a good idea? I saw at least one person recommending it. I personally don't like the pipers grip as I don't think it gives as much control as using the "normal" finger pads. And I also think it can be a bad habit to get into as it will not work on some flutes/instruments.

KAC

kennychaffin · Post by **kennychaffin** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:20 am

crookedtune wrote:
kennychaffin wrote: I'm thinking that a standard conical bore irish flute must be easier in the fingering department (maybe someone can confirm that for me as this is my only experience with Irish/simple system flute).
I can confirm that for you. I have a Tipple, and have played a few conicals, including Trip's Sweetheart. The Tipple requires a bit more stretch than the conicals, but is very playable for someone with normal-sized hands. A bit of stretching before during and after practicing will get you there soon enough. And staying relaxed is very important. Ten minutes of smooth, relaxed practice is always better than hours of struggle, (which can actually do damage, if you're not careful)!

Thanks.

KAC

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:15 pm

kennychaffin, I haven't played a Tipple, but I have played my own home-made similar conduit tube flutes and also low whistles with the same large holes and span. Yes, they are harder to span and to seal with certainty than conoid bore equivalents until you get used to them, but unless you have particularly small or stiff hands and/or very narrow fingertips, it shouldn't be that difficult or painful on a normal D instrument. I too would advise against the R4 substitute fingering unless as a last resort, but I would say that a semi pipers' type R hand position can be helpful (I use it on low whistle). Try this for R hand semi-pipers': put the pad of R3 on its hole as normal and hold the flute in playing posture with R thumb also in your normal place. Hover your other fingers as though about to play but don't put them down; pivoting on R3, tip/push the base knuckle of R1 in towards the flute and a little up-tube - this will slightly rotate your forearm (not your wrist), but not into a stressed or twisted position. That R1 base knuckle will now probably be roughly in line with a line drawn along the long axis of L3 finger in playing position and about 1"/2.5cm out from the side of the tube perpendicular to its axis, about half way between holes 3 & 4. Now put R1 & 2 down onto their respective holes: R1 will probably contact in the centre of the 2nd knuckle pad and R2 nearer the top (outward) end of it. Then adjust your R thumb position for comfort and to provide light outward pressure on the tube.

All that said, you may well still be able to stick to "orthodox" hold with your R hand and span and seal the holes with the usual fingers if you get your hand position right: the secret is in the R thumb, amazingly enough. Experiment with it by moving it up and down the tube and also laterally around the tube, observing your hand the while. It is remarkable how much difference to the whole hand just a couple of millimetres change in thumb position can make, in finger angle (both of approach to the tube laterally and of contact down onto the tube vertically), control and relaxation, general mobility and also to the security of your flute hold. Every hand is different, and the proportions of your body affect the angles of your whole arms in approaching the flute, so there is no "correct" thumb position in a general sense: but you have to find the correct one for you, and I think may be astonished at what a difference it can make.

kennychaffin · Post by **kennychaffin** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

jemtheflute wrote:kennychaffin, I haven't played a Tipple, but I have played my own home-made similar conduit tube flutes and also low whistles with the same large holes and span. Yes, they are harder to span and to seal with certainty than conoid bore equivalents until you get used to them, but unless you have particularly small or stiff hands and/or very narrow fingertips, it shouldn't be that difficult or painful on a normal D instrument. I too would advise against the R4 substitute fingering unless as a last resort, but I would say that a semi pipers' type R hand position can be helpful (I use it on low whistle). Try this for R hand semi-pipers': put the pad of R3 on its hole as normal and hold the flute in playing posture with R thumb also in your normal place. Hover your other fingers as though about to play but don't put them down; pivoting on R3, tip/push the base knuckle of R1 in towards the flute and a little up-tube - this will slightly rotate your forearm (not your wrist), but not into a stressed or twisted position. That R1 base knuckle will now probably be roughly in line with a line drawn along the long axis of L3 finger in playing position and about 1"/2.5cm out from the side of the tube perpendicular to its axis, about half way between holes 3 & 4. Now put R1 & 2 down onto their respective holes: R1 will probabaly contact in the centre of the 2nd knuckle pad and R2 nearer the top (outward) end of it. Then adjust your R thumb position for comfort and to provide light outward pressure on the tube.

All that said, you may well still be able to stick to "orthodox" hold with your R hand and span and seal the holes with the usual fingers if you get your hand position right: the secret is in the R thumb, amazingly enough. Experiment with it by moving it up and down the tube and also laterally around the tube, observing your hand the while. It is remarkable how much difference to the whole hand just a couple of millimetres change in thumb position can make, in finger angle (both of approach to the tube laterally and of contact down onto the tube vertically), control and relaxation, general mobility and also to the security of your flute hold. Every hand is different, and the proportions of your body affect the angles of your whole arms in approaching the flute, so there is no "correct" thumb position in a general sense: but you have to find the correct one for you, and I think may be astonished at what a difference it can make.

Jem, thank you sir. I really appreciate how helpful and encouraging you and others here are. Certainly I can play and cover the hole and make a semi-musical sound with my normal "grip" (i.e. using the pads of the first joint) -- it may jest be that I need stretching/practice etc. for these old fingers and bones.

I guess I was trying to understand what is SO wrong with using the little finger other than it might get you into trouble when switching instruments (as could the pipers grip when trying to play a silver flute which may also be in my future). I guess the piper's grip is no different as far as a variation either. Whatever works, right?

I will continue to stretch and practice and climb that hill.

Thanks!

KAC