Looking for long-scaled original Pratten's lengths

[Terry McGee]

Hi all

I'm interested in hearing from owners of original Siccama and Pratten's Perfected flutes as to their scale lengths.

Reason I ask is this. I have here two Siccama flutes, both by Siccama, both using what we refer to as Hudson keywork (really nicely made sterling silver keys with cups that unscrew from their shafts). What's really interesting about these two flutes is that they are clearly made for two different pitches, as can be seen from their C# to D# lengths, 246 and 253mm. That difference represents a change in pitch of about 2.8% - enough say for one to be at modern pitch and the other to be at High pitch, so we're talking significant differences.

Interestingly though, the pitches in use at the time were 430 and 452, almost double the difference between the two flutes. So we may not be looking at specific pitches, but perhaps better compromises? Professional player chooses flute closer to High Pitch, amateur player chooses flute closer to domestic pitch?

Whatever, clearly Siccama was trying to do something other makers were not - I don't see evidence of different pitches in Rudall & Rose flutes for instance. They continued slowly to shorten the feet on their flutes, but it wasn't until High Pitch was abolished in favour of modern pitch when Rudall & Carte suddenly came out with a shortened scale flute (what sense does that make?).

Having established that the much derided Siccama was actually clearly on the ball, I wonder what Pratten drew from this. We know he revised the 10-key Siccama back to an 8-key, before then also developing more keys for it. We know he acquired Siccama's worker Hudson, and that in some deal, Boosey & Co took over Hudson and the Pratten's Perfected name. But did he take over the idea of having flutes aimed at different pitches, or, as a professional musician, did he just decide to opt for the higher one? We know he did make the higher pitch flutes - I have one here at 245mm. But did he offer them at the lower pitch, say around 253mm? The only reference I have for one a this length was kindly provided by Marcus Hernon, referencing a flute belonging to a Matt Malloy. But one example does not establish a habit - can we find a few other examples of lower pitch Prattens?

If you aren't sure what I mean by C#-D# length, check out http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/CsharpEb.htm.

And if you want to see the extant data on Siccama, check out http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Sicc_Ext.htm

So if you have an original Prattens or Siccama flute, and your data isn't already represented, I'd like to know the maker's name, serial number and c#-d# length.

Terry

[ajay]

Hi Terry,

My Henry Potter pratten-style flute has a distance of 250mm between c# & eb centres. Where it differs from the Boosey is in the size and position of the eb hole. It is 13.6mm diameter, which is the same size as the bore diameter at that point. It plays nicely at a A440.

My Boosey Eb has a distance of 232mm.

cheers
Andrew

[RudallRose]

terry
i'll be giving you the measures of the two oldest existing of each flute

Hudson-made Pratten #49

Hudson-made Siccama #32

This should help you lots

dm

[irish69]

terry
i'll be giving you the measures of the two oldest existing of each flute

Hudson-made Pratten #49

Hudson-made Siccama #32

This should help you lots

dm

What happened to #'s 1-48 and 1-31?

[RudallRose]

I wish I knew!

[RudallRose]

Terry

The Hudson-Pratten: 244mm
The Hudson-Siccama: 255mm

I've added another: an early Hudson-made Siccama (#742), made about the same time as the hudson-pratten .
#742: 250mm

I trust that helps?

dm

[daiv]

terry
i'll be giving you the measures of the two oldest existing of each flute

Hudson-made Pratten #49

Hudson-made Siccama #32

This should help you lots

dm

What happened to #'s 1-48 and 1-31?

i bought them and made a table out of them. a really GREAT table.

[Terry McGee]

Heh heh, given the different scale lengths, I bet the table wobbled!

Terry

[Denny]

naw....he put in the floor too

[Terry McGee]

Terry


I've added another: an early Hudson-made Siccama (#742), made about the same time as the hudson-pratten .
#742: 250mm

I trust that helps?

dm

Thnaks, Dave. Hmmm. The Hudson-Pratten at 244mm is typical of all but Matt Malloy's longer scaled one. So we're still looking for another long-scaled Pratten to prove Matt's is not an aberration, or special.

And the Hudson-Siccama at 255mm seems the longest scale Siccama yet, although not by much. So we now have Siccamas at 244, 246, 248, 250, 252, 253 and 255mm! With no clear trend in terms of serial numbers - they just weren't getting shorter or longer but jumping about.

So it still appears that Mr Siccama was in the business of offering customers varying lengths that presumably somehow met their varying needs, whereas Mr Pratten almost always offered them a higher pitched flute the same scale-length as Siccama's shortest. Siccama's longest length was the same as routinely used at that period by Rudalls, Clinton, Fentum, Pask, Prowse, etc.

If we assumed that these makers of long-scaled flutes were aiming at low (domestic) pitch, A = 430, the short scale would come in around 450 Hz, just short of High Pitch. Unfortunately, it's never that easy to be sure what pitch these flutes are best at, as the tuning tends to be too erratic. But at least covering the range 430 to 450 makes sense - that was the range the professional musican would have had to deal with.

Terry

[smoro]

What´s suppose to be the measure for Matt Molloy´s Bossey Pratten? I mean, he use to play really sharp when he is playing in D, particulary in "Contentments is Wealth", just listen firs track. It could be a flute designed to play at A>440 Hz?

[Jon C.]

What´s suppose to be the measure for Matt Molloy´s Bossey Pratten? I mean, he use to play really sharp when he is playing in D, particulary in "Contentments is Wealth", just listen firs track. It could be a flute designed to play at A>440 Hz?

You might be confused with the Eb Boosey he also played.

[Cork]

What´s suppose to be the measure for Matt Molloy´s Bossey Pratten? I mean, he use to play really sharp when he is playing in D, particulary in "Contentments is Wealth", just listen firs track. It could be a flute designed to play at A>440 Hz?

It may be somewhat unorthodox, but in competitive flute performance, sometimes a player could choose to play sharp, if only to help capture the audience's attention, and thereby to make their performance "outstanding."

[smoro]

What´s suppose to be the measure for Matt Molloy´s Bossey Pratten? I mean, he use to play really sharp when he is playing in D, particulary in "Contentments is Wealth", just listen firs track. It could be a flute designed to play at A>440 Hz?

You might be confused with the Eb Boosey he also played.

Absolutely not. I know he playes Eb in some recordings, but when he plays in D he use to play sharp, listen last recording with John Carty as well and check.
And listen any recording by The Chieftains, they use to play at A=445, always sharp.
Regards,
S.

[smoro]

What´s suppose to be the measure for Matt Molloy´s Bossey Pratten? I mean, he use to play really sharp when he is playing in D, particulary in "Contentments is Wealth", just listen firs track. It could be a flute designed to play at A>440 Hz?

It may be somewhat unorthodox, but in competitive flute performance, sometimes a player could choose to play sharp, if only to help capture the audience's attention, and thereby to make their performance "outstanding."

Yes, I think it could be. If you pull the slide in the sound become more brilliant, I guess Matt loves to do that.
S.