So here's a quick question to test yourself to see if you understand just tuning, equal temperment and the differences between them:Cork wrote:OK, there seem to be some here who could be unaware of two, very different forms of tuning, namely, of equal temperament and of just intonation.
A show of hands, please, as just who could be unaware of such a difference?
BTW, I didn't invent this, as this has been a matter of music for more than the past few centuries.
So, c'mon, let's get into it!
You are correct Gordon. But the original question was "Can we trust tuners" and my answer is, usually yes but only if you understand temperments; many tuners display equal temperment, and if you don't understand what this means compared to the temperment you want, then you can't trust them.Gordon wrote:I'm repeating myself a bit here, but playing in tune by yourself is a matter of having a good ear, just as in singing - no one sings with a tuner in their face. Whether this will be in just or equal temperament is only important when there's accompaniment in one or the other, and then the adjustment is made by the singer, without a lot of discussion about it.
Flutes are tuned by their makers - to a point. Certain compromises are made so the flute(s) will work with a variety of instruments, in just or equal temperament, whether pianos and/or pipes. It has to do with control over your embouchure and instrument, so this isn't really about just or equal temperament at all. What's important is how to adjust tuning while you play, as necessary.
Well, not quite! Keyboards in the form of organs, harpsichord family instruments, yes. Equal temperament was already understood by Bach's time, but not preferred. The pianoforte was only in its earliest forms in the mid-late C18th. Colomon is right, however, that Cork has the rationale for equal temperament wrong. It has little or nothing to do with differences between very low and very high pitch ranges on or between instruments, but everything to do with how the octave at whatever pitch is divided and the fact that the mathematical ratios of the vibration numbers (frequencies) of other intervals such as the fifth do not when multiplied coincide with the multiples of the octave. Thus to produce any workable instrument or even to sing or just to have a theoretical, mathematical scale - and not necessarily a diatonic or Western chromatic one at that, compromises and compression of some kind are required. Of course, singers and players of unfretted strings and trombone have direct access to the entire range of pitches/frequencies within their compass and make these compromises in practice without reference to theory (normally), though what they do "naturally" is of course susceptible of analysis. Those (most) of us playing instruments where pitches of various notes are more "built in" to the instrument have more or less capacity to bend those pitches depending on the mechanics of sound generation in the particular instrument. Keyboards, save the clavichord, have no such capacity - and that's the devil of them. Pity the poor string trio or quartet playing with piano for Mozart or Beethoven or Schubert piano quartets/quintets!colomon wrote:pianos existed for centuries before equal temperament was invented.
You're quite right, I should have said something like "used commonly" rather than "invented." But the point remains that in Bach's day, a piano would not have used equal temperament, and orchestral strings and winds still do not use it by default.jemtheflute wrote:Well, not quite! Keyboards in the form of organs, harpsichord family instruments, yes. Equal temperament was already understood by Bach's time, but not preferred.colomon wrote:pianos existed for centuries before equal temperament was invented.
Well, yes, but the original question opened an unimportant can of worms, IMO.groxburgh wrote:You are correct Gordon. But the original question was "Can we trust tuners" and my answer is, usually yes but only if you understand temperments; many tuners display equal temperment, and if you don't understand what this means compared to the temperment you want, then you can't trust them.Gordon wrote:I'm repeating myself a bit here, but playing in tune by yourself is a matter of having a good ear, just as in singing - no one sings with a tuner in their face. Whether this will be in just or equal temperament is only important when there's accompaniment in one or the other, and then the adjustment is made by the singer, without a lot of discussion about it.
Flutes are tuned by their makers - to a point. Certain compromises are made so the flute(s) will work with a variety of instruments, in just or equal temperament, whether pianos and/or pipes. It has to do with control over your embouchure and instrument, so this isn't really about just or equal temperament at all. What's important is how to adjust tuning while you play, as necessary.
A tuner gives you information; you have to know what it means to be able to make use of it.
Cheers
Graeme
