Irish Pipes?????? where are they?

[BigDavy]

I was at the Uisge session on thursday and there was 3 uilleann pipers and 1 uilleann pipe owner(me) there, and it struck me that of the pipers there and in this area that I know, that how few of them actually play or own Irish pipes actually made by an Irish maker. I thought this funny considering that the UP are considered to be an Irish instrument.

After scratching my head about the local pipers / pipemakers that I know in the area, the only people that I know for certain have Irish instruments, made by an Irish maker, are Jim Daily and myself (Crossan chanter in D and Rand chanter in D in my case).

This surprised me, considering the Irish population in the west of Scotland, that it was easier to find German (Rogge), French(Froment), Spanish(ARPHA) or even Pakistani pipes, than it was to find Irish ones.

Puzzledly

David

Edited to remove Roberts since i have been infomed he is English.

[MichaelLoos]

Does Jim Daily not play pipes of his own make, or is it a different Jim Daily?

[boyd]

yes....Jim is Scottish...has a Scottish accent too

I think he owns a wee house in Ireland somewhere.

I seem to remember him saying he had Irish blood...but its years since I saw him last...can't quite remember

B

[Uilliam]

There could be many reasons for why.Not least of course was the culture of immigration.It was normal for folks to leave Ireland until very recently.
Next there is the practicalities involved.The calling to be a pipemaker is a bit like being called to be a trappist monk.Not a lot of people want to actually do it.There are literally thousands of ways of making more money,even sweeping the streets would be a secure number compared withPM.
Next of course ye should ask the question who actually taught these makers .I know for a certainty that Matt Kiernan taught a younger Andreas Rogge his craft.Now Andreas could have stayed in Ireland but it made more sense economically to produce in Germany I suppose (I presume here)
Matt also taught Alan Ginsberg in the early 70's of the last century.So German and Welsh pipes ye might think but wi an Irish heart.
Now to twist the blade Cillian O'Brian that worthy Irish maker in Ireland learnt his making frae Brian Howard who as we all know is based in Sheffield in the heart of Englandshire...so that kind of turns the premis that Irish Pipes should be made in Ireland on its head.
Some of the finest pipemakers in the world are not frae Ireland but they certainly learnt their trade there..Woof, Fromant(they maybe self taught I don't know but they lived in Eire) Rogge & Haneman in no particular order are outstanding.
The ones that ye mention Davy frae Ireland are mediocre makers in my opinion.
So where does that leave us...in a Global village.
Jim plays his own stuff but he owns a Hussey set frae 1820.Made in Dublin.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[Richard Katz]

I also own a full set in D made by Charles Roberts.

Charles is not Irish by the way.

He is English from Northumbria. He lived in Ireland for many years before his recent move to Spain.

I thought he was Irish until I stayed with him back in 1998 and he told me where he was from after I asked him about his accent. Didn't sound Irish to me.

So...your Irish pipes are made by an Englishman. Really doesn't matter as long as the quality is there.

Cheers! Richard

[unregulated]

hi Davy and all
I own three chanters in D
two Irish made ebony chanters
a two keyed Eugene Lambe
and a keyless Hughes & McLeod
and a Charles Roberts bag & bellows
along with my main instrument which is on lone at present
a four brass keyed ebony and ivory
of unknown origin (I posted it over on pictures of your pipes a while back’ page 109 to try and identify the maker so I can have drones/top piece made).
Unreg.
Uilliam PM’ed you

[gregorygraham]

It seems to me that the fact that so many pipemakers are not Irish (including so many top flight pipemakers) is a sign the instrument and its music is thriving. Can you imagine a world where only Spanish people played the guitar?

[ausdag]

are not frae Ireland but they certainly learnt their trade there..Woof, Fromant(they maybe self taught I don't know but they lived in Eire)

Hi Uilliam,

If I'm not mistaken, Woof learnt to make pipes in Tasmania starting around 1976 and continued to do so until he went to Ireland in 1989(?) So he's and Englishman who learnt pipemaking in Tassie and went to Clare in '89 for a change of scenery.

DavidG

[Uilliam]

Hi Aus thanks I knew that .Hence the wee caveat "..self taught" When I say they lived in ireland i am sure they put it to good use to further develope their outstanding skills.I may be wrang but I think it more than likely.Pipemaking is a two way process and Woof and Fromant would have been surrounded by very good Pipers and they would have picked up a tip or three frae them I am sure.

Uilliam

[ausdag]

Hi Uilliam,

I'm sure that's absolutely true. Actually it was Victoria, not Tasmania.

DavidG

[unregulated]

oops this was missed from my earlier reply and Gregory reminded me.

As with any instrument I would’nt restrict it’s potential to the country it was developed in otherwise I’d play flamenco on guitar and the whole american guitar thing would’nt have happened, I don't think you’d have it that way?. I was reared in Scots & Irish trad music but I don't play them on the chanter I play my own music on this beautifully expressive and sounding woodwind instrument
I'm trying to encorage a top (uilleann) player to tackle Bach’s great Chacone in D minor (BWV 1004) for solo violin with traditional Irish ornimentation which I toy with on guitar, but I fear the uilleann chanter needs a further development viz. an amplitude modifier (a means of continualy altering the volume) and suspect that is what the left hand pinkie is wating for - a key going up into the reed cap and muting the reed??? pipemakers there's the idea I leave that up to you.
so there is plenty of scope yet for this humble little “folk” instrument in or outside Ireland.

unreg.

oh Jim Daily = Glasgow (Dear green place) & Kinvara (Head of the Sea).
An aside - The soccer team “The Glasgow Rangers” obviously did’nt put any thought into naming the club as they claim to have an aversion
to the colour green, = Rangers from the "dear green place". jist a thought.
enough for now

Look to the horizon and you wont be waylaid by every little thing in your path.
noble zen master geeoh

[billh]

As with any instrument I would’nt restrict it’s potential to the country it was developed in ...

so there is plenty of scope yet for this humble little “folk” instrument in or outside Ireland.

I rather think the uilleann and union pipes are significantly different from most other instruments, so the generalization may be misleading. Some instruments such as the flute, violin, guitar, etc. are by their nature quite versatile. While the pipes are a very highly developed instrument, I do not believe they have this sort of inherent versatility. In my view they are a specialist instrument and I feel that the vast majority of attempts to apply the pipes to a repertoire outside of traditional "piping" tunes have been failures. In the earliest days of the union pipes there seems to have been an interest in playing classical and popular tunes on the instrument, but this appears to have waned rather quickly. Some carefully selected classical pieces may be relatively playable on "our" pipes, but frankly I suspect that other forms of pipes may lend themselves even better to these (for instance, Musette du Cour or Northumbrian pipes).

I don't think that the union/uilleann pipes have ever been a "humble folk instrument", even in their earliest days they were quite sophisticated and, according to current scholarship on the subject[*], marketed to a rather elite class of gentlemen. Their subsequent adoption as a truly indigenous Irish folk instrument seems to have been a later development[**] which may or may not have been something the original exponents anticipated.

As to amplitude modulation via interfering with the reed inside the reed cap, I think this is very unlikely to be feasible. A considerable amount of amplitude modulation is already possible in the hands of an expert piper, via the use of alternate fingerings and other piping techniques.

Bill

[*] see, for instance, Sean Donnelly's extensive research in the area
[**] the irony being that the earliest Pastoral/union pipes were marketed to (presumably wealthy) gentlemen as both "New" (in fact called the "new bagpipe") and as a vehicle for playing ancient ('Hibernian') music... there is no real evidence that these pipes originated in Ireland, the earliest examples were made in England and Scotland. However, these instruments seem to have become strongly associated with Ireland within about a generation, and began to be called the "Irish Pipes".

[nemethmik]

This surprised me, considering the Irish population in the west of Scotland, that it was easier to find German (Rogge), French(Froment), Spanish(ARPHA) or even Pakistani pipes, than it was to find Irish ones.

The reputable pipe makers in Ireland are so busy that it is nearly impossible to place an order for a new set from them. If you are lucky you will have a set by 2010 Christmas, if you place an order today.
A better question would be: where do the owners of the Irish maker made Uillean pipes play their sets? Possibly, the Irish pipers do not trust the quiality of their own makers since they know them, or they find their prices too high for their Irish revenue. If you want to see a number of Irish pipes you should visit a session in the US, Germany or Scandinavia. Just ask the Irish makers on this forum if they have Irish customers?

Miki

[PJ]

Irish resident pipemakers (as per NPU website):

Martin Crossin
Arie De Keyser
Mark Donohoe
Michael Dooley
Michael Dunne
Lorcan Dunne
Bill Haneman
Robbie Hughes
Donncha Keegan
Eugene Lambe
Martin Preshaw
Dessie Seery
Kevin Thompson
Michael Vignoles
Jim Wenham

I don't know how up-to-date the NPU's website is - it still lists Alain Froment as being in Kerry.

[billh]

For the curious, my order/delivery destinations currently break down like this:

46% IE
27% EU (outside IE)
21% USA
6% ROW ('rest of world')

No idea if that is typical.