Blatantly biased opinions (or not) wanted

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norcalbob
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Re: Blatantly biased opinions (or not) wanted

Post by norcalbob »

chas wrote:There's no such thing as a flute that just anyone can push harder, especially down low. Many people sing the praises of the bottom end of the Copley. That wasn't my experience; of all the flutes I've played, the Copley was the one I found the most difficult at the bottom. Followed by the Hammy, a flute that many many people find has a strong bottom. It wasn't the flutes, it was me.
That could very well be a factor for me as well, Charlie. I know that the Irish flute needs a tighter, more focused embouchure, in general, than the Boehm flute to obtain that really dry, reedy sound. My embouchure will improve immensely with time, but I think it is "decent" now. I'd like to try some other flutes to see how the fit is for me currently. Many folks would advise me to slow down and give it some time, but at my age and contradictory to the laws of physics, time seems to be moving a little quicker each year. So now seems to be the right time for me. Besides, Doc is always saying, "Come and get 'em." :D
Bob

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norcalbob
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Post by norcalbob »

Loren wrote:Okay Bob, since you asked:

Having played all the flutes you've mentioned and then some, there's not much comparing to be done with regards to how they play and sound. They will all play somewhat different from one another, and they will all sound like you. You will love one, then prefer another. You will rave about the next flute, until you get the next, which seems even better, or perhaps worse, then you will move on once again, only to decide that perhaps #2 was the best ever, until someone here rants about a new maker that has popped up and then you'll have to have that maker's flute as well.

Fun as this all sounds, it will hamper your playing as you constantly try to adapt your embouchure to often radically different embouchure cuts. Worse still, you intonation will constantly suffer because each maker makes different scale compromise choices, so each flute you own will require somewhat different lipping/breath pressure/rolling, etc. to play in tune.

Most of us have been through this process, so I'm not ragging on you, just saying that in the end, people who want to enjoy playing the music, rather than just talking about it, tend to find that sticking with one good flute while mastering the music, delivers more satisfaction than spending one's time flute shopping and going through instruments like cordwood.

Of course I know nothing I've just said will change one thing with regards to how you proceed, but at least one day I'll be able to say "I told you so."
:twisted:

In all fairness, others told me the same thing, and it took me a while to wise up.


Have fun,

Loren
Great post, Loren, spoken with a ton of wisdom.

Much appreciated,
Bob

Come to the edge/ It's too high/ Come to the edge/ We might fall/ Come to the edge/ And we came/ And he pushed/ And we flew!
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Post by norcalbob »

Tintin wrote:All very fine flutes, all feel quite distinctive, all have certain tonal leanings, but in the end I'm sure I just sound like myself, although I also think some of the flutes suit me better than others.
Thanks for your whole, informative post, Tintin. I think your sentence above sums it up nicely for me, I'd like to play around and find out what suits me best, perhaps for now and for hedging a bet on the future.
Bob

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Post by Akiba »

Interesting how you posted this subject just 6 hours ago and already have a dozen replies. I think we all egg each other on to look at, consider, drool over, fantasize about all the great flutes out there. I know it's true for me. I tried many flutes over the last couple of months and had a difficult time committing to one. I finally did buy a Cochran delrin Rudall/Pratten hybrid. My budget was the $500 range. (By the way, I did try a blackwood, slideless Copley and had difficulty with the low D as well; also, not having a slide worried me because I find that playing with others in different conditions demands a flute that has a wide range of intonation adjustment.) I really like the Cochran, but like all other flutes I've played and tried, it doesn't play perfectly right out of the box. Each flute, I believe, has its own idiosyncracies that take a long time to figure out. I would hope that the more expensive flutes have fewer "chinks" and are easier over time to play. But having not played one (Grinter, Murray, Olwell), I can't say. I love John Wynne's playing and know he plays a Murray, so I dream about getting one. I still look almost everyday on Doc Jone's site and wonder about all the different McGee's, etc. and how I'd sound on them. I think this overt, addictive coveting is something of a C&F disorder.

That said, my plan is to stick with the Cochran for a while, hopefully years. I find it an excellent flute in many ways--it honks on the low notes, has great responsiveness and a wide range of timbres. All my clips at the site in my signature below are played on that Cochran. I think the mic mutes some of the edge of the tone, but it's a fair representation of the flute. The best tracks that may give an idea of the different timbres of the flute are Flowers of E and Torn Jacket, one darker, the other brighter.

Cheers.

Jason
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Post by norcalbob »

Akiba wrote:I finally did buy a Cochran delrin Rudall/Pratten hybrid. My budget was the $500 range. (By the way, I did try a blackwood, slideless Copley and had difficulty with the low D as well; also, not having a slide worried me because I find that playing with others in different conditions demands a flute that has a wide range of intonation adjustment.)

I think this overt, addictive coveting is something of a C&F disorder.
My Copley is the slideless model. I wonder if the having the tuning slide would have the effect of focusing the edge on the lowest notes? I can get a nice rich tone which is very appealing in itself, but I haven't been able to get that dry bark. I'm sure very experienced players could get it, but surely different flutes vary in their ease in obtaining that tone...wouldn't they?

Regarding the flute coveting disorder, I think I will write to the American Psychological Association and have them add it to Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. This disorder has a Pavlovian response: any reference to a new flute elicits immediate coveting and drooling.
Bob

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norcalbob
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Post by norcalbob »

Wormdiet wrote:3) Keys. Mine *look* badass, which is of course the most important factor in choosing a flute.
I'm with you on that, Wormdiet, if it ain't badass, I ain't buying it. I've got a B foot on my silver Muramatsu that Cork says I should ditch. Ain't gonna happen...it's just too badass! :D
Bob

Come to the edge/ It's too high/ Come to the edge/ We might fall/ Come to the edge/ And we came/ And he pushed/ And we flew!
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Post by norcalbob »

Akiba wrote:That said, my plan is to stick with the Cochran for a while, hopefully years. I find it an excellent flute in many ways--it honks on the low notes, has great responsiveness and a wide range of timbres. All my clips at the site in my signature below are played on that Cochran. I think the mic mutes some of the edge of the tone, but it's a fair representation of the flute. The best tracks that may give an idea of the different timbres of the flute are Flowers of E and Torn Jacket, one darker, the other brighter.
I just listened to your tunes, Jason...really, really nice! I can see why you would want to stay with the Cochran for a few years.
Bob

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Post by Aanvil »

By the way...

Just so you don't get me wrong.

Playing every kind of flute I can get my hands and mouth on is an obsession for me. I am quite sure that I'm not the only one here. I have a hankering for vintage. Lucky for me I have a pusher. :D

Jon made me a really slim Pratten in Delrin. Of the others he has made I think this one is one of his gems so far. The shape and balance is really nice considering it plays like a real Pratten and real Pratten weigh a ton... well they seem that way to me. I played the hell out of it for two years until I came into a vintage flute of a Rudall craftsman.


I share your enthusiasm Bob, but just be prepared for an epiphany about your embouchure.

I've got four time the years you have on silverflute and I can assure you that it is a different animal entirely.

That said... its damn good fun and that the point of it all... at least for me.
Aanvil

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I am not an expert
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Badass!

Post by ChrisLaughlin »

Flute players themselves are the only ones who would ever say that a flute looks "bad ass".
Last edited by ChrisLaughlin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Badass!

Post by Loren »

ChrisLaughlin wrote:Flute players themselves are the only one ones who would ever say that a flute looks "bad ass".
DUUUUDE! You are bad ass. Good to see you're still out there brother. Still fighting the good fight I take it?


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Re: Badass!

Post by ChrisLaughlin »

Loren wrote:
ChrisLaughlin wrote:Flute players themselves are the only one ones who would ever say that a flute looks "bad ass".
DUUUUDE! You are bad ass. Good to see you're still out there brother. Still fighting the good fight I take it?


Loren
Hey man, thanks for the greetings. Yeah, still kickin' it human-rights style. I left Uganda last October and now I'm based in the east of Sri Lanka, Batticaloa to be precise, where I run a legal aid programme with the Norwegian Refugee Council for people displaced by the war here. I still listen to almost nothing but Irish music, still play the whistle and flute (my Olwell has now been in the US&A, Ireland, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Australia, Uganda, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Sri Lanka, not counting countless airports, and has not a single problem... badass!), but damn I miss a good session. I had a dream a few nights ago that I was at a session.... anyways, I'm off to Norway this evening so I have to run, but it's great to hear from you and I really hope to see you in Boston again someday soon. I'm glad you're still playing as well.

By the way, I've owned a Copley, Grinter and Olwell, in that order. They're all bad ass, but Mr. Olwell's flute is the most bad ass of them all. In the end though it's not the flute that makes the player bad ass, it's the player that makes the flute bad ass...
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Post by Gabriel »

Didn't read everything for now (have to leave for work), but a short note about flute sounds:

In general, the player determines the sound much more than the flute. The funny thing is, that, to my experience*, the longer a player plays a flute, the more it sound's like the player's typical sound. Each flute has a quite unique sound to it that speaks if the player isn't accustomed to the specific needs of the embouchure hole etc.

There are certainly some factors that determine the "natural sound" of the flute (overall embouchure shape [not only general shape, i.e. circle, rectangle etc.!], bore diameter, bore taper, hole size...), but in the end the player makes the flute sound like he/she wants it.

To illustrate this, here are two true stories: ;)

My flute teacher used to own an Aebi Pratten and a Rudall, also made by Tom Aebi. He played the Pratten exclusively until he got the Rudall. After getting used to it and using it in a band rehearsal, the other band members asked him: "Why the heck did you buy that flute? You don't sound any different!" (and all of them are experienced musicians with lots of hearing experience!).
The Pratten is now mine, and I sound like me, not like my teacher, FWIW. The sound has a little less hiss to it than my Reviol, but that's caused by incompatibilities between embouchure design and my lip's design, which one of the few factors that really depends on the flute. My teacher sounds pretty much like on his Aebi when playing the Reviol. Without hiss.

A friend plays an Ormiston Rudall. Nice flute, and the more I play it, the more I like it. It's the same with my Aebi: when she tried this model for the first time, she couldn't play it, and everytime we meet and she tries my flute again, she sounds better. But she doesn't sound like me, she sounds like on her Ormiston which is pretty much the opposite of a Pratten.

* One can find sound samples of my playing in the Posting Clips thread in case one wants to verify my ability to have an own opinion about flute topics.
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Post by sbfluter »

My opinion:

2 months isn't enough time to have any idea of the capabilities of your flute. I don't care how many years you've played a different flute-like instrument. I've had my folk flute for almost a year and only now do I feel like I'm starting to reap its potential.

But people like to acquire and try and I have at least 15 whistles and flutes myself.

I would say to try them yourself. Everybody glows about the ones they like. I tried a Hammy and an Olwell. I thought both were nice but neither left me thinking I must have one.

Perhaps that is because I'm just too practical and want to learn more about what I'm capable of and what's best for me before I just chase The One the pundits say is the best.

Reminds me of a guy I knew who read the consumer reviews of all the different coffees and declared that this one brand was best because the magazine said so. My other friend, a fussy coffee drinker said it was not the best because he didn't like it. They had a heck of an argument. The first guy just couldn't understand why he wouldn't agree the highly rated was better and the second guy couldn't convince him that if it doesn't taste better it just isn't better no matter what.
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Re: Blatantly biased opinions (or not) wanted

Post by Cathy Wilde »

Cork wrote:
I'd like to have one of these very same flutes in blackwood, please, for which I'd be glad to double the money!

Hello, Mr. Forbes?
No! I want a Delrin Eb first! :D
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Post by Jay »

For what it's worth, I got a chance to swap my Copley with an Olwell a few weeks ago (just for a couple of tunes, rats!). The Olwell played just like my Copley under my lips... and I was amazed at how similar my Copley sounded like an Olwell when played by the other fellow (a very strong player). There were certainly differences, but I realized I still had a LOT of growing room on the Copley. I say get on a waitlist if you like, but don't waste too much time fretting over the instrument; the biggest differences will come from playing it.

All the best from a relative newbie,
Jay
Maker of wooden flutes for Irish traditional music. www.woodenflutes.com
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