Blatantly biased opinions (or not) wanted

[norcalbob]

O'k...so I'm pathetically hooked on this little wooden flute. I've had my Copley for about 7 weeks now. I've played it every day, and I feel like I'm learning quickly having come from a Boehm flute background. So now I've got the itch to begin trying other flutes, because, well...because I like to try new instruments, especially flutes, and, like many of you, I'll probably own several at some point. I may end up buying a few, and maybe selling a few, and will ultimately keep a few of my favorites. How many, I'm not sure, but probably less than I might covet, and more than my wife would think is necessary.

I've been listening to a lot of the music on the Wooden Flute Obsession CD's, and I very much like the sound of the Murray, Olwell, and Grinter. I'm looking for a flute I can push a bit harder, especially down low, that is capable of strong reedy tone. I play mostly by myself and may play with some accompaniment eventually..guitar, piano, bodhran. I think I'd jump at a Murray right now if I could find one available, and I'm considering ordering a keyless Olwell which has a year waiting period. The Grinter is pricey for a keyless model at $1846 US and a 15 month waiting period.

So if you own or have played a Murray, Olwell, or Grinter, I'd love to hear about your singular or comparative experience. I understand that there are many, many variables involving the musician etc. when it comes to discussing flutes; I would just like to know what your experience has been, whatever that may be, regarding similarities and differences etc. If there are other flutes that you feel compare well, I welcome your comments about them too.

Lastly, I am considering a Forbes or, perhaps, a Cochran Delrin as a "take anywhere" flute. So if you have experience with both or either of these flutes, I'd be interested in your impressions as well.

Much appreciation in advance,

[Aanvil]

Just over two months?

You going to a fire or something?

You should be able to get a good honk off of your Copley.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that you can't its not the flute.


If you just can't stand it just buy the Olwell and be done with it. That will be more than enough flute for you for some time.

[Cork]

...I am considering a Forbes or, perhaps, a Cochran Delrin as a "take anywhere" flute...

Speaking of flutes one could even play in a shower (talk about anywhere)...

I got one of Rob Forbes' Delrin flutes several months ago, and I'm sure it's worth every penny I paid for it.

I'd like to have one of these very same flutes in blackwood, please, for which I'd be glad to double the money!

Hello, Mr. Forbes?

[norcalbob]

Just over two months?

You going to a fire or something?

You should be able to get a good honk off of your Copley.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that you can't its not the flute.


If you just can't stand it just buy the Olwell and be done with it. That will be more than enough flute for you for some time.

I knew this was coming before I posted the topic.

Yep, just over two months, and I can add 7 years of Boehm flute, and many years with other musical instruments. I think there is some carry over. Still, you're right, I'm a newb to the Irish flute. That said, I've been listening carefully to the various flutes used in the Wooden Flute Obsession compilation, and these were the flutes that I particularly liked. And, even as a newb, I do believe I can here a tonal difference between the Murray and the Olwell. Both wonderful, but the Olwell seems, to my ear, have a tonal niche of its own.

Off to a fire? Not really, I like playing different models of flutes and other instruments, and I can appreciate some of the qualitative differences. For example, I began playing the didgeridoo a little over a year ago. I now have 4 authentic Aboriginal didges, 5 made by various master crafters, and two I made myself. I play all of them off and on, and they're all different in their own way - be it key, wood, tone, backpressure, artwork, or other qualities. I've reached the point in my life where I can enjoy what I choose to enjoy within reason.

The intent of this thread wasn't meant to be about what the Copley can or can't do. It's a wonderful flute, surely capable of more honk than I can coax from it. As I get better, it'll sound better. That's a given.

I probably will get on Pat's waiting list. A year down the road, it will be a great treat when it arrives. In the meantime, I might get a nice Delrin model to throw in the backpack or take in a kayak. Who knows, maybe I'll like it better than wood; I've never played one before.

Bottom line, I look forward to trying many flutes and owning a few, and I think its all good.

[Cork]

OK, so, perhaps there could be some truth to the saying that there is no such thing as having too many flutes.

;-)

[Irish Marine]

Hi Bob-
I wish I had the experience of playing an Olwell, Murray, and Grinter. I have heard an Olwell and Grinter played a few feet from where I stood though. The Olwell was a keyless Pratten in blackwood, while the Grinter was a Rudall model in cocus. Both were exceptionally sounding flutes. They were loud, responsive, and had solid, hard Ds. Most of that had to do with the players though, I'm sure, as one was Mr. Ochs and the other Mr. Crawford. I was able to get my hands on the Olwell, and one thing that amazed me was how light it was for a Pratten model. Now I know it was keyless, but that's all I ever handled. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

I can share my thoughts about Burns's flutes though. He makes amazing flutes with a reedy sound. They are quite loud compared to other flutes I've heard and played. His flutes are responsive, well-made, and just sound wonderful. Many people will give differing opinions about different makers-if they've played them, definitely listen to them. But I don't think people's opinions can replace you getting your hands on them.

~Sean

[chas]

I'm looking for a flute I can push a bit harder, especially down low, that is capable of strong reedy tone.

There's no such thing as a flute that just anyone can push harder, especially down low. Many people sing the praises of the bottom end of the Copley. That wasn't my experience; of all the flutes I've played, the Copley was the one I found the most difficult at the bottom. Followed by the Hammy, a flute that many many people find has a strong bottom. It wasn't the flutes, it was me.

That said, if you're having trouble with the bottom end of the Copley, you might want to go to a Rudall-type flute, so any of those you've mentioned (assuming a small- or medium-holed Olwell) would fit the bill. I haven't had the pleasure of playing a Murray, but have owned a Grinter and both small- and medium-holed Olwells. They're all great flutes. I was put off by the weight of the Grinter (it was blackwood, lined head), as was my wife, a lifelong silver-flute player. I find the Olwells to be about the easiest-playing flutes I've tried, possibly outside of the Bleazey. In addition to the ease of playing, the medium-holed (aka Nicholson) has an incredibly versatile tone palette. Also, to give you a point of reference, my wife loves the Olwell Nicholson and is on the waiting for a keyed copy of it.

[Wormdiet]

I'd try out as many flutes as you possibly can for the next several months. No need to rush.


I love my Murray for its upsides.
1) Of course it sounds/plays good, but that's to be expected. I'd have been happy with an Olwell I'm sure too.
2) It's extremely light, slender, and ergonomically comfortable. My M & E, while a good sounding flute, created wrist soreness issues that do not exist with the Murray, even though is has . . .
3) Keys. Mine *look* badass, which is of course the most important factor in choosing a flute. There's some strange tarnish on them caused by my skin and/or the metal. In any case, the flute looks antique, which is swell.
4) Price. I got mine with keys (and lefty) for less than $2k US. But that was 1.5 years ago before the exchange rates were what they are now. Not sure what you'd need to pay today.

Downsides:
1) Keys. . . they work well enough but, to be honest, Copley's blow them away from a usability standpoint, and some of the tuning needs to be worked on. I am slowly getting used to them though, and now have some reliable Fnat and G# tunes in the repertoire. I managed to get in some Bb's on Christmas Carols:)

It's really only the Cnatural key that's noticeably flat, and I need to get off my rear and get it looked at. That's the only real downside to the flute.

[jiminos]

OK, so, perhaps there could be some truth to the saying that there is no such thing as having too many flutes.

off topic for a moment.... as a guitar player of some forty odd years, i can state unequivocally it is possible to own enough guitars, but it is impossible to own too many guitars. i am learning the same is true of flutes... i wonder... hw many is enough?

back to the topic at hand....

be well,

jim

[Loren]

Okay Bob, since you asked:

Having played all the flutes you've mentioned and then some, there's not much comparing to be done with regards to how they play and sound. They will all play somewhat different from one another, and they will all sound like you. You will love one, then prefer another. You will rave about the next flute, until you get the next, which seems even better, or perhaps worse, then you will move on once again, only to decide that perhaps #2 was the best ever, until someone here rants about a new maker that has popped up and then you'll have to have that maker's flute as well.

Fun as this all sounds, it will hamper your playing as you constantly try to adapt your embouchure to often radically different embouchure cuts. Worse still, you intonation will constantly suffer because each maker makes different scale compromise choices, so each flute you own will require somewhat different lipping/breath pressure/rolling, etc. to play in tune.

Most of us have been through this process, so I'm not ragging on you, just saying that in the end, people who want to enjoy playing the music, rather than just talking about it, tend to find that sticking with one good flute while mastering the music, delivers more satisfaction than spending one's time flute shopping and going through instruments like cordwood.

Of course I know nothing I've just said will change one thing with regards to how you proceed, but at least one day I'll be able to say "I told you so."


In all fairness, others told me the same thing, and it took me a while to wise up.


Have fun,

Loren

[Cork]

OK, so, perhaps there could be some truth to the saying that there is no such thing as having too many flutes. ;-)

off topic for a moment.... as a guitar player of some forty odd years, i can state unequivocally it is possible to own enough guitars, but it is impossible to own too many guitars. i am learning the same is true of flutes... i wonder... hw many is enough?

back to the topic at hand....

be well,

jim

Number of flutes? OK, that's one thing.

Number of guitars? OK, that's another.

However, in a similar sense, how many pianos could be enough?

;-)

[Cork]

Okay Bob, since you asked:

Having played all the flutes you've mentioned and then some, there's not much comparing to be done with regards to how they play and sound. They will all play somewhat different from one another, and they will all sound like you. You will love one, then prefer another. You will rave about the next flute, until you get the next, which seems even better, or perhaps worse, then you will move on once again, only to decide that perhaps #2 was the best ever, until someone here rants about a new maker that has popped up and then you'll have to have that maker's flute as well.

Fun as this all sounds, it will hamper your playing as you constantly try to adapt your embouchure to often radically different embouchure cuts. Worse still, you intonation will constantly suffer because each maker makes different scale compromise choices, so each flute you own will require somewhat different lipping/breath pressure/rolling, etc. to play in tune.

Most of us have been through this process, so I'm not ragging on you, just saying that in the end, people who want to enjoy playing the music, rather than just talking about it, tend to find that sticking with one good flute while mastering the music, delivers more satisfaction than spending one's time flute shopping and going through instruments like cordwood.

Of course I know nothing I've just said will change one thing with regards to how you proceed, but at least one day I'll be able to say "I told you so."
:twisted:

In all fairness, others told me the same thing, and it took me a while to wise up.


Have fun,

Loren

All in all, nicely said, Loren!

[Loren]

It's really only the Cnatural key that's noticeably flat, and I need to get off my rear and get it looked at. That's the only real downside to the flute.

Have you compared your Murray to another Murray? By that I mean does your Cnat vary from other Murrays? When I owned both Olwell and Murray flutes at the same time, one of the first things I noticed was that Pat and Sam made VERY different scale choices with regards to the treatment of C#/Cnat.

Are you using Sam's suggested fingering for the Cnat? Might be that he intended certain fingers up/down when the key is being used. I don't remember off hand if I did anything different on my Murray for that note, but then that's simple system flutes for ya, I just expect 'em all to behave differently at this point, lol!

Loren

[tin tin]

I'll bite...I've had a chance to try an Olwell Pratten, a Murray, and a Grinter within the last year (not side-by-side). I've been playing a Copley for four years (following 15 years of Boehm flute playing). I'm very happy with my Copley and find it to compare favorably to the other three makes listed. I should also say that it took me over two years to start getting where I wanted to be, tonally, on it--and to be able to push the low notes. (Still not there, of course, but now I'm pretty happy with my tone...most days.) It's simply a very different animal from the Boehm flute and takes time to learn and adjust to.
On to the others: in the case of the Grinter, suffice it to say, if I had the cash, I'd order one. The narrower bore (which the Murray has, too) gives wonderful resistance and responsiveness, and it has a great range of tone color and economy of air.
I'm not entirely sure how to describe the Murray--very distinctive, perhaps the most individualistic flute I've tried. Very lively. When I played one, it somehow made sense why Harry Bradley would play one, given his sound and style.
The Olwell I tried was very easy to play, naturally lent itself to a reedy tone, and was very easy to push in the low octave. The low D was especially firm and solid. Like the Copley, it has a large bore, and so the two bear some general similarities.
All very fine flutes, all feel quite distinctive, all have certain tonal leanings, but in the end I'm sure I just sound like myself, although I also think some of the flutes suit me better than others.

By the way, I should add that I had the opportunity to try a number of Olwell flutes five or six years ago at Patrick's shop. This was when I was just beginning to play Irish music, but my my Boehm flute playing was at its peak. I sounded awful on the various (and wonderful) new and antique flutes Patrick let me try. On the other hand, I sounded good on the Olwell I played a couple months ago. In between, of course, I've been playing the heck out of my Copley.

[norcalbob]

Many people will give differing opinions about different makers-if they've played them, definitely listen to them. But I don't think people's opinions can replace you getting your hands on them.

As one of the other forum members shared with me recently, Sean, one of the problems in choosing an Irish flute is finding a way to get your hands on the ones you'd like to try. And, once you do decide, you can only hope that what you think you want now is what will want 1 to 7 years from now. It's a rather unique process, I'd say.