A little bit of heresy

[pancelticpiper]

... you have to switch off the part of the brain that is trying to work out what combination of fingers you need for F# and just go for it.

Now this of course is true! You can't play fluently if you're still at the stage where you're "trying to work out" the fingerings. The fingerings have to be automatic due to the speed Irish reels and jigs are played at.

[pancelticpiper]

One of the tricks I've learned that has helped me greatly is to take all of the lowest notes normally played by the keyboardist and practice them slowly, making sure I play every note. Once this is done, I build up my speed until I can play it faster than usual without mistakes. That way, when I join the group, I'm actually slowing down my playing a bit, and it's much easier to keep a solid rhythm. The same would likely hold true for any instrument.

I too believe in this practice strategy and use it, especially on the Highland bagpipe tunes I play in the Pipe Band.
I "work up" the tunes by playing them slowly with a metronome, steadily increasing the speed until I'm at a speed faster than we will actually ever play them. I try to do this at each personal practice session. That way, no matter what tempo the band ends up taking the tunes at, I'm prepared.
Some pipers only practice the tunes at the "ideal" speed. In the heat of competition, when the band may bump up the tempos a bit, these players, suddenly being forced to play the tunes faster than they've ever practiced them, tend to fall apart.
But, in the main, I practice tunes rather slower than the performance speed in order to clean up everything.

[straycat82]

If you have been playing for a long time and got good at it there is a strong temptation to want it to be difficult.

So is your goal to insult those here who have the ability and knowledge to actually help your playing?

Here's a more likely scenario: If you haven't been playing very long and aren't very good there is a temptation to want it to be easier than it is.

Truth is you have to work for it and it won't happen overnight. Once you realize that there aren't any shortcuts and devote your practice time to the essentials rather than your schemes and shortcuts the time you spend practicing will be more worthwhile and you'll be closer to decent playing.

I remember my stubborn days as a newbie, I had the same frame of mind. I figured I wouldn't try to learn "the hard tunes" so that I could get by with the sub-mediocre playing I had already accomplished. That trip didn't last very long before I hit a wall. If you think the only purpose in going to a session is for you to play tunes with a group then you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle and you're likely missing out on some great resources.

[emtor]

Once you realize that there aren't any shortcuts . . .

. . . exactly,-which reminds me of an old blues song: "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody want's to die."

[okewhistle]

I think you need to read again what I actually wrote, which was a very mild suggestion that there might be more than one way to approach it, and then consider the vehemence of the reaction: you kind of make my point for me.

Several of you sound very much like my old woodwork teacher, or my violin teacher when I was eight, who told us we wouldn't even be getting the bows out of the case before week six (I don't think I made it past week four). Lighten up guys, music is supposed to be fun.

I'm not a newbie; I've been playing for a long time, most of it slowly, building up the skills and the technique but every so often I like to let rip at full speed, even if I play a few bum notes.

I'm sure there are others reading this who feel the same: what about some support here?

[Nanohedron]

I think you need to read again what I actually wrote, which was a very mild suggestion that there might be more than one way to approach it, and then consider the vehemence of the reaction: you kind of make my point for me.

As to the first, okay. As to the the last, we'll see.

I have followed a few threads on this site on the right speed for learners to play. The wisdom of the wise is always play slowly, get your technique right and then speed up. This is good advice, but it has a couple of problems with it. Most ITM just doesn't sound right when it is played too slowly: you seem to have to wind it up to a certain speed before you get that "Ah! I see!" feeling and it makes sense. Also most people learn the whistle because they want to play with other people and it is frustrating to have to put in ten years apprenticeship before you can play in a real session.

I don't know what too slowly is. I do think it's a mark of good musicianship to play something slowly and make it sound "right". It will of course have a very different character than than in its sprightly playing, but that's to be expected. Also, I think your "ten years apprenticeship" is a misunderstanding of the case. We are in perpetual apprenticeship. Even the masters. They'll tell you no different; there's no point where one has "arrived". We're all students whatever our performance level.

So I want to suggest whack on the old Altan CD and play along but don't try to play all the notes. A lot of ITM tunes have a sort of skeleton tune inside them with the rest being ornamentation and it is often possible to simplify them to the point where even beginners can play at speed. It might not sound great on your own, but add a few other instruments and it's OK. before long your fingers start twitching to do a few diddly bits and you've got the whole tune anyway.

Speaking in terms of "the bones" of a tune is commonplace - I do it myself - but it's really just an expedient, as much of the time the idea vanishes under close scrutiny. There may be more than one way to approach the idea of a ground framework for a tune, but although they may be close in some ways to each other, they will be different. That said, yes, one might build some muscle memory for a tune by picking out scraps and bits and fleshing them out from that, but I wouldn't do that if I have the leisure of having a recording on hand to listen to over and over again, eventually learning that particular version/setting. I'm not saying no one should ever do it; I just think it's a way by and large of cheating oneself in the end.

The other advantage of this method is that if you crank up the speed beyond your abilities you have to "use the force", ie, you have to switch off the part of the brain that is trying to work out what combination of fingers you need for F# and just go for it.

Yes, and no. Yes, if you already have the tune down pat. No, in that you can't abandon mind and play well, not to mention at all, unless you've drilled the tune and the playing of it into your marrow so that it's already automatic.

You need to practice slowly as well, of course you do, but I don't reckon it does any harm to have a good blast at top speed in the privacy of your own home. You were doing it anyway, but I just want to say in my opinion there is nothing wrong with it.

I'll do the "blast away" thing on occasion with certain tunes just to see where I'm at and affirm what I really already knew all along: that my performance level for that tune is still not up to snuff. But I do think sooner or later one has to push what one can play well at a slower speeds, but by just a bit. Just nudge it along in its own good time, and by increments. If I absolutely have to play something so that it's smokin', I'd rather have it polished than humiliate myself with a shambles. But that's just me.

Anyway, speed's all fine and good for the stage, but playing beautifully at any speed is more important, I think.

I'm not a newbie; I've been playing for a long time, most of it slowly, building up the skills and the technique but every so often I like to let rip at full speed, even if I play a few bum notes.

Fine, then. I'm sure we all do. But you mentioned earlier what sounded like ending up with an approximation of a tune with chunks of holes in it, and here you're talking about "a few bum notes", so I don't know which it is you mean. So, I just don't think it's good to make a recommendation of it, is all. Better to leave it in its status as a guilty pleasure.

[straycat82]

I think you need to read again what I actually wrote, which was a very mild suggestion that there might be more than one way to approach it, and then consider the vehemence of the reaction: you kind of make my point for me.

I just find your position (which you have illustrated clearly in several different anecdotes) on taking the time to do it the way an expert suggests versus "doing it my own way" is not an intelligible way to approach anything.

When I was at school I longed to be old enough to do woodwork. When the big day came and we stood by our benches I thought we would start by making something. The teacher took the whole hour telling us how to hold a saw just to make a point. I've never really forgiven him.

or my violin teacher when I was eight, who told us we wouldn't even be getting the bows out of the case before week six (I don't think I made it past week four)

Sure, music is fun, but refusing to accept that it will take hard work, difficulty, and perhaps a few less-than-enjoyable practices to get there is absurd.

I would agree that there are a few guilty pleasures one can delve into a bit along the way but making it a practice is a big mistake. Sure on occasion I've tried taking a reel to speeds so fast only dogs can hear when in the privacy of my own home but it usually just results in a brutal reminder of why I don't do that in public
Picking up the bare bones of the tune while listening is a good practice if you're learning the tune by ear but it is not a place to stop and sit satisfied. You need to keep going until you have a version that you don't need to have "filled in by other instruments." Playing a dotted quarter note as a single note because it is a stylistic variation you have chosen is one thing. If you avoid playing a roll because you don't know how or because "it's too hard" and you don't want to take the time to learn how then you're only fooling yourself.

[Jon-M]

Well, I hate to see a guy getting picked on, so I will confess that I find that pushing the speed quickly past my comfort zone is often a fast way to get the muscle memory going for a given tune. There's also a practice technique I read somewhere or other and use sometimes of playing a tune very slowly, then jumping up to say 120 then coming back down again. Also, it seems to me that if you analyze the "bare bones" of a tune, it can set you up for a more flexible approach to possible variations. That said, I will duck for cover as the various Elmer Fudds out there come out with shotguns blazing.

[okewhistle]

Thank you. I knew you were out there.

[boatgirl]

If I took a shortcut in a channel, anxious to get to port after sailing for weeks on end I would likely run aground and it would take me much longer to get where I want to be. Apparently music is the same way. The longer I am in this world of whistling, the slower I get! It is a process of going back to do it right. I love shortcuts as much as anyone and when I can, I take them - but I really think you will enjoy the music you are making when it becomes solid. I know I have. I play a few tunes I know well at speed but most of it I have to admit is slower than you speed deamons. When my kids start dancing though, I know I've got rhythym.

Regarding Mitch's baby walking analagy, my son, I swear, ran before he walked. This will probably help prove your point too because he runs into everything. Actually broke his little 4 yr old nose yesterday and went to hosptial for a possible fractured skull when he fell flat on his face on concrete. Hells Bells, hospital bills. Thank God he is okay. Me, I have a lot of grey hairs everyday but anyway...

Slow is better imo and I'm no expert - rythym is everything and if you are doing it right it sounds good at any speed.

[Enclose]

Slow is better imo and I'm no expert - rythym is everything and if you are doing it right it sounds good at any speed.

I disagree with that. Speed dictates the ornamentation you use. It won't change ofcourse of the change in speed is only slight. But in big speedchanges it will definitly matter. For example iIf you do a roll on a fast tune it'll sound good, but if you do the same roll, while on a slowed down version of the tune it'll just sound awkward and out of place.

[boatgirl]

I do agree with you that making an 8 yr old kid wait six week to play a violin is too much. Torture really. I think kids should get to have at it for a few weeks and then, when they actually are interested in learning a nice tune, teach them the right way to go about. Maybe we are all kids at different levels here?

[sbfluter]

Actually, the original advice was given to me as advice for how to play a dulcimer in a jam situation. They told me that if you cannot keep up with a fast fiddle tune you don't have to resort to strumming basic chords, but instead you can continue to play the melody with your noter -- a simplified melody -- of the tune. In this way you are playing chords because you are playing intervals of the tune.

I don't think this advice is horrible for the whistle at all. It would be a useful means of learning to learn by ear. I'll bet even the seasoned players do this to some extent when learning new tunes.

If it is inappropriate to do at your local session, or inappropriate only when beginners do it which I suspect is the real complaint I'm hearing, then that is a completely different issue.

[Tia]

Soo as much as I can see where your coming from, sure if you play too much at a slow speed you get used to it, and playing fast is fun,
if you dont take it slow you'll never learn the tune properly and will probably get yelled at.
So learn it slow then slowly speed up, also as you get better at learning tunes, the better you get at playing them faster as soon as you see them

[straycat82]

If you do a roll on a fast tune it'll sound good, but if you do the same roll, while on a slowed down version of the tune it'll just sound awkward and out of place.

Not if you are playing your rolls properly.