Advice for accompanists: a rant

[talasiga]

I think your point must revolve around a view that accompaniment is primarily the domain of the guitar.

You goof, the bodhran is no more traditional in ITM than a guitar.
So a bodhranist chasing off a guitarist for reasons of "tradition" is silly.
Good grief, and I thought the rest of the English-speaking world had
a better sense of irony than Americans...

Me no goof. You goof for you no savvy my post which inclooded

............I don't accept a heirarchy of guitar over bodhran or vice versa and each and all are entitled to express musical criticism. ......

Hope me bad English make this one post more savvy for you.

[Nanohedron]

Like I said, Talasiga, don't put words in my mouth. Any "hierarchy" of accompaniment was in your mind. I have said, and well more than once, that I favor the pairing of a good bodhrán and flute, in case you've forgotten. It's a pure, primal thing (which I've also said, and more than once, too). Besides, it's easier to be at stylistic/conceptual loggerheads with gizmo players than it is with drummers, but that can happen, of course. It's just less likely, in my experience. All you need is rocksteady rhythm and simplicity, and Bob's yer uncle.

Fearfaoin got it.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

I have been watching and reading as this thread has progressed waiting to see what would transpire and where this would all end up. I have to go back to Ro3b's original 'rant'.
I too have spent many a time listening to (through teeth so tightly clenched that my jaw would hurt afterwards!) the said 'accompanist' decorate (or should that be decimate?) a session that until their joining in, was going along quite nicely.
I was at a session (playing whistle) and my friend asked me to take a guitar off another guy or he himself was going to do something he would regret afterwards. I got around the situation by asking the guy if I could try something on his guitar for the next set that was coming up. I hinted to the guy that he should try doing a little bit of what I had just done, just for something different. Well, come the next set, he was back to square one. I had a chat with the guy afterwards and tried to tell him nicely that ITM has a different lilt to it than any other style of music. I showed him a few different rhythyms for the same tune, and how to emphasise the beat at different times in a bar of music, the upbeat, third beat etc.
He was totally ablivious to anything I explained to him and he just carried on banging away regardless.
I am usually very diplomatic in sessions, but now, here in this forum it is time to side with Ro3b and have a rant on this issue.
IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TUNE, DON'T PLAY.
We are not having a free for all jam, GO AWAY!
If you are a learner, bring a recording device, then go home and learn the tune for the next time.
If you learned the tune a long time ago and are rusty on it, by all means play softly until you pick it up, second or third time around, but....
IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TUNE, DON'T PLAY.
Hey you, yeah you with the fancy Maton guitar playing the up down up down 1-2, 1-2 rhythym to every tune, be it reel/jig/polka/slip jig, go away and learn the correct rhythym.
IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE RHYTHYM, DON'T PLAY.
IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TUNE, DON'T PLAY.

And lastly and most importantly, (Doffing my hat to Ro3b)
IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TUNE, DON'T PLAY.

There, I feel a lot better now, I have felt this way but not said anything for a long time. Thank you Ro3b for the little push over the edge.
I'm away for a lie down!

[Nanohedron]

...Well, come the next set, he was back to square one. I had a chat with the guy afterwards and tried to tell him nicely that ITM has a different lilt to it than any other style of music. I showed him a few different rhythyms for the same tune, and how to emphasise the beat at different times in a bar of music, the upbeat, third beat etc.
He was totally ablivious to anything I explained to him and he just carried on banging away regardless...

I sometimes wonder if gizmos are something on the order of bodhrán for some people who play them: all you need is a few chords, et voilà! Bob's yer uncle. An "easy in" to the trad crowd. As to nuances, well, as a friend once ironically said, "It's just dance music for farmers". Plonking should be just fine, right? I mean, it's folk music; how hard can it be? Anyway, it seems some people must be looking at it that way, or you'd think they'd improve.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TUNE, DON'T PLAY.

That's the way. And don't just not play; LISTEN. If you're not "getting" the tune, ask someone. But just because someone lets you know the tune's in Dmix, say, it doesn't mean you can plug in that C chord any old where and make it work right. The tune will usually, with exceptions, let you know if you listen.

Now, I have admit that I'll sometimes break that rule, but only in special situations: when the session's dwindled down and it's just me backing up a melody player, sometimes he or she will pull out new tunes during a set, sometimes tricky ones, to see how I am on the uptake. You know that's going on because you get the raised eyebrow and sly smile. Fair enough, and a fun exercise, actually. But there are tunes where one can anticipate the progression, if one has spent a lot of time really listening, and so they don't pose much of a challenge; certain other tunes, though, I still stop and listen. That's just good manners. Get the tune, and then play.

[talasiga]

Like I said, Talasiga, don't put words in my mouth.

......

Time has not not diluted the irony of your demand.
Who has put words in whose mouth?

[Nanohedron]

Like I said, Talasiga, don't put words in my mouth.

......

Time has not not diluted the irony of your demand.
Who has put words in whose mouth?

Please, Talasiga. If you have something of actual substance to offer - as opposed to apparent presumptions and quips without discernible focus - be so good as to grace us with that instead.

[talasiga]

Could be a toggle for a chain so one could hang one's flute from one's cummerbund. A jaunty accessorization, no?

I take it that the that post of yours is an "actual substance" post. I hope you don't mind me using those words together which I first saw in a another post -

........Please, Talasiga. If you have something of actual substance to offer - as opposed to apparent presumptions and quips without discernible focus - be so good as to grace us with that instead.

(boldened by talasiga)

[buddhu]

I'm sure you didn't really take that long desperately scouring the forum for that example, Mr T.

I'm sure it just seems that way.

Way to contribute. Some people might have been tempted to get into a pointless exchange of puerile flack.

If I may be excused for asking something vaguely on topic:

Does the tuning a guitarist uses seem to make their contribution any more or less appropriate as accompaniment?
For example, would most of yz think that one o' them tunings with all Gs, Ds and As sounds more in the ITM spirit that standard gitbox tuning?

Personally, I have to confess to preferring the sound of a sensitively played standard tuning. I have a mate who tunes the other way, and some of his droning drives me crazy.

[Ro3b]

Hm, still a little off-topic there, dude. But what the hell.

Does the tuning a guitarist uses seem to make their contribution any more or less appropriate as accompaniment?
For example, would most of yz think that one o' them tunings with all Gs, Ds and As sounds more in the ITM spirit that standard gitbox tuning?

I don't think so. A guitarist can do effective accompaniment in any tuning s/he chooses, provided s/he (a) knows the music and (b) knows his or her instrument. I mostly play DADGAD in sessions, but I don't like endless droney stuff either and I generally don't play that way.

[Nanohedron]

Hm, still a little off-topic there, dude. But what the hell.

Does the tuning a guitarist uses seem to make their contribution any more or less appropriate as accompaniment?
For example, would most of yz think that one o' them tunings with all Gs, Ds and As sounds more in the ITM spirit that standard gitbox tuning?

I don't think so. A guitarist can do effective accompaniment in any tuning s/he chooses, provided s/he (a) knows the music and (b) knows his or her instrument. I mostly play DADGAD in sessions, but I don't like endless droney stuff either and I generally don't play that way.

Yeah, I agree with the both of you. DADGAD tends to get more appreciation hereabouts as "more 'traditional' sounding" (meaning "modal", I suppose), but it does have its limits. The player makes it work, or not. I tune my cittern DGDAD - sort of a DADGAD in reverse - and the droney D in unbarred G chords sometimes wears pretty thin. But hey, I'm not required to play all of the courses at one time, am I. I find it's actually better if I don't; keep it simple and spare. But that's my taste.

[buddhu]

Hm, still a little off-topic there, dude. But what the hell. ...

Aw, c'mon. It's within hailing distance...

I'm not an ITM session veteran. My local one is a mixture and will have some Irish dance tunes one week whereas another week might be mostly rock and roll or bluegrass. It's a catch-all for local acoustic musicians and it depends who turns up. My main exposure is when I go to Ireland for vacations.

The droney stuff sounds great in some contexts, but as accompaniment for some really melodic pieces I sometimes feel it actually detracts from the tune. Kind of fits, harmonically, but lacks a kind of sympathetic sweetness I associate with standard guitar tuning.

That might not be very clear. My harmonic theory and technical vocabulary are pretty suspect.

[Ro3b]

I mostly play DADGAD in sessions, but I don't like endless droney stuff either and I generally don't play that way.

Heh, actually I just realized that the second link in my sig has me playing in a pretty droney fashion, for me anyway. But give me a break, it was a long time ago...

[IrishPiper42]

Ro3b

I just played the link from your sig - very nice!

-Mike