Still no post from me. Maybe some day, but not now. For now, this is what tells me that I'm making improvement, and it does it in a way that means much, much more than anyone's opinions here ever could.
When I was starting to learn flute, about 2-1/2 year's ago, I was working very, very hard on making the darn thing sound as good as I could, and doing so without the benefit of a teacher, or even anybody to play with. I thought I was getting pretty good at it, too, for a rank beginner. Then my son said, one night, "Dad, could you not do that doodly-doodly stuff? It keeps me awake."
Man, was I ever crushed. I was trying so hard to learn, and to get good, and then a 10-year old tells me that I'm really bad.
Jump forward a couple of years...
Last week, my son said, "Dad, I can't sleep. Would you please play for me?"
That's all the affirmation that I need.
Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips
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flutefry
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- Tell us something.: Pipes have become my main instrument, but I still play the flute. I have emerged from the "instrument acquisition" phase, and am now down to one full set of pipes (Gordon Galloway), and one flute (Hudson Siccama).
- Location: Coastal British Columbia
Rob, I'd argue that advice to "move your thumb up the bow" is fine in public because it's a technical comment that doesn't impugn anyone. Anyone getting any lessons (golf, tennis, skiing) gets told that a different position of body parts will improve performance.
Of course anyone or any teacher can choose whether to call people out in public. Sometimes it's motivated by the desire to help. Proponents of this idea like to think of themselves as "direct" or "honest" or "just trying to help". Perhaps they are. Or not.
I am (genteelly of course) arguing that linking a clip to an argument is different because it can be perceived as an attack on the credibility of the poster. Notice that I agree that we all make judgments about who to listen to and why based on the available evidence. Where we apparently disagree is whether or when it is constructive to make these judgments public.
There's an irony here. If the rule is "post and we'll judge, don't post and we'll judge anyway", then this is pretty close to damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I suggest that your continued emphasis that one's playing could and should be used to assess credibility weakens your case for the value of posting clips, and makes it less likely that people will post.
It's not clear to me why you (and others) need to keep stressing the public judgment/credibility issue if the motive is to increase the sense of community on the forum.
Hugh
Of course anyone or any teacher can choose whether to call people out in public. Sometimes it's motivated by the desire to help. Proponents of this idea like to think of themselves as "direct" or "honest" or "just trying to help". Perhaps they are. Or not.
I am (genteelly of course) arguing that linking a clip to an argument is different because it can be perceived as an attack on the credibility of the poster. Notice that I agree that we all make judgments about who to listen to and why based on the available evidence. Where we apparently disagree is whether or when it is constructive to make these judgments public.
There's an irony here. If the rule is "post and we'll judge, don't post and we'll judge anyway", then this is pretty close to damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I suggest that your continued emphasis that one's playing could and should be used to assess credibility weakens your case for the value of posting clips, and makes it less likely that people will post.
It's not clear to me why you (and others) need to keep stressing the public judgment/credibility issue if the motive is to increase the sense of community on the forum.
Hugh
I thought I had no talent, but my talent is to persist anyway.
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jemtheflute
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This is offered solely as an illustration, similarly to other analogies offered in this thread - I don't really want to get into the general argument, which is why I haven't thus far, as I feel my own other participation on this forum says enough in that regard. Besides which, I find myself quite genuinely "on the fence" with regard to much of what the two main camps here have to say. However, as the Rob/Daiv situation in that old thread had been mentioned, I think it apposite to say this:
Some time ago in a thread on tone production and improvement Daiv presented a series of techniques/exercises which (adapting them a little and adding some other ideas from the same thread) I credit with having engendered my biggest step forward as a player in a very long time: I am now consistently producing a much fuller, more focussed tone than I was capable of before, and far more reliably (though it is still not as good as I'd like!) - and loving my R&R flute more than ever as a result. I have also been able to pass these things on to other people. I feel I owe Daiv much for that.
Somewhat like Rob, when I came later to view/listen to some clips of his playing Daiv put up links to, I found it hard to reconcile what I saw and heard with the excellence of his technical advice and assuredness of the stances he took. (I also made some rather firm criticism of one of those offerings.) I am hardly going to dismiss the proven usefulness of Daiv's technical suggestions because I have subsequently been disappointed by his published performances! I must however admit that I do now feel my perceptions of Daiv's verbal contributions to be coloured by what I have seen/heard of his playing, which they were not previously. So these thing DO have an effect. I am (I trust) mature and detached enough to have learnt from this specific situation, though indeed it represents a concrete example of a point I would probably have argued in principle, much as Andrew Hollom did above.
One does not have to be a virtuoso to have insight; the best players are not necessarily the best teachers and great teachers may be only moderate performers; as a teacher one may be passing on a technique or information one has only just learnt and scarcely mastered, but that does not make its usefulness or validity less than if one had mastered it years ago; the informed and studied listener may make perfectly good and useful evaluations and criticisms while quite unable to perform themselves, useful not least because they have a different perspective from that of a competent performer; even a less thoughtful or knowledgeable, off-hand, subjective reaction/comment can be insightful and useful sometimes.
Posting clips? I do. And I expect and hope for feedback on them, critical or otherwise. I enjoy (or not!) other folks clips and welcome them all. I think it would be a good thing if everyone posted at least one in their signature as a matter of course (unless they are a non-playing forum member - are there any?) as a kind of community thing, but if individuals don't want to or feel uncomfortable about it, I don't really care and certainly don't hold it against them - I will evaluate their verbal contributions on their own merits and with appropriate amounts of salt which I'll also continue to apply to those whose playing I have heard. We all talk crud from time to time. I have learnt a huge amount since becoming active on this forum and hope I contribute constructively. I thoroughly enjoy being here, though with inevitable occasional annoyances and sadnesses. That's life!
Some time ago in a thread on tone production and improvement Daiv presented a series of techniques/exercises which (adapting them a little and adding some other ideas from the same thread) I credit with having engendered my biggest step forward as a player in a very long time: I am now consistently producing a much fuller, more focussed tone than I was capable of before, and far more reliably (though it is still not as good as I'd like!) - and loving my R&R flute more than ever as a result. I have also been able to pass these things on to other people. I feel I owe Daiv much for that.
Somewhat like Rob, when I came later to view/listen to some clips of his playing Daiv put up links to, I found it hard to reconcile what I saw and heard with the excellence of his technical advice and assuredness of the stances he took. (I also made some rather firm criticism of one of those offerings.) I am hardly going to dismiss the proven usefulness of Daiv's technical suggestions because I have subsequently been disappointed by his published performances! I must however admit that I do now feel my perceptions of Daiv's verbal contributions to be coloured by what I have seen/heard of his playing, which they were not previously. So these thing DO have an effect. I am (I trust) mature and detached enough to have learnt from this specific situation, though indeed it represents a concrete example of a point I would probably have argued in principle, much as Andrew Hollom did above.
One does not have to be a virtuoso to have insight; the best players are not necessarily the best teachers and great teachers may be only moderate performers; as a teacher one may be passing on a technique or information one has only just learnt and scarcely mastered, but that does not make its usefulness or validity less than if one had mastered it years ago; the informed and studied listener may make perfectly good and useful evaluations and criticisms while quite unable to perform themselves, useful not least because they have a different perspective from that of a competent performer; even a less thoughtful or knowledgeable, off-hand, subjective reaction/comment can be insightful and useful sometimes.
Posting clips? I do. And I expect and hope for feedback on them, critical or otherwise. I enjoy (or not!) other folks clips and welcome them all. I think it would be a good thing if everyone posted at least one in their signature as a matter of course (unless they are a non-playing forum member - are there any?) as a kind of community thing, but if individuals don't want to or feel uncomfortable about it, I don't really care and certainly don't hold it against them - I will evaluate their verbal contributions on their own merits and with appropriate amounts of salt which I'll also continue to apply to those whose playing I have heard. We all talk crud from time to time. I have learnt a huge amount since becoming active on this forum and hope I contribute constructively. I thoroughly enjoy being here, though with inevitable occasional annoyances and sadnesses. That's life!
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
My YouTube channel
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Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
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Rob Sharer
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- Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...
I'd say Jem pretty well summed it up, so there's not much I can add. I hear what you're saying, Hugh, but you're relying a bit too much on the same sort of facile, soundbite paraphrases that I've railed against elsewhere on this thread. Who is the "we" to whom you are referring? Sounds like an elite cadre of C&F *rseholes who are gunning for the innocent. I just don't think that's what life on this board is really like, clips or no clips.
We all come at this from a different perspective, and everyone has something to offer to the general discussion. You can tell alot about someone by how they present their views; as always, there's what you say, and there's how you say it. You will never see me breaking bad on one of our gentle lamb beginners; after all, I teach plenty myself, young kids included, so I'm in the encouragement biz. Even a flat-out wrong suggestion, presented in earnest, deserves gentle treatment. I will say this, though: if in the course of discussion or debate I come across someone who is putting on airs and sticking his or her neck way, way out, I may not be quite so gentle. Cheers,
Rob
We all come at this from a different perspective, and everyone has something to offer to the general discussion. You can tell alot about someone by how they present their views; as always, there's what you say, and there's how you say it. You will never see me breaking bad on one of our gentle lamb beginners; after all, I teach plenty myself, young kids included, so I'm in the encouragement biz. Even a flat-out wrong suggestion, presented in earnest, deserves gentle treatment. I will say this, though: if in the course of discussion or debate I come across someone who is putting on airs and sticking his or her neck way, way out, I may not be quite so gentle. Cheers,
Rob
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rama
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example1:
rob: ramalamadingdong, can we hear your honking low d, the one you keep talking about, seems unlikely that one could blow a honking low note on a mcchud with 6 cracks and a gaping embouchure and bubble gum in the bore.
me: here's my clip (soundclip goes here) of honkin low d, um it's cold and i sprained my wrist, have a fat lip, and the recorder sucks ...
rob: oh thanks i listened to it. i can now hear what you are talking about, just as i suspected...seems you played a second octave F, ahem the low d is actually the bottom note"....
ronbo: i knew it...this is getting moronic
guinness: argh you just suffer from low self worth, i seek impunity.
loren: put up or shut up, fair is fair .
hugh: public judgement sucks man!
gordon: i like you guys, but not that much
cocusflute: shut up and play
cubitt: this is silly, i shall never post a clip for as long as i shall live!
dana: ditto
mary: .....
cat get a murray they rock!
cork: at the flute game alongtime, yet likes being joe the clown
eric: this is a big contradiction of terms
peeplj: ah clips don't tell you much
jimstone: who cares... i like to drool over picures of naked flutes
crookedt: seperate wheat from the chaf baby
dow: all i care about is if my son can sleep at night
jonc: here's a photo of my latest flute....
chas: don't foolishly take advice to heart
nano: be nice and not mean will ya?
jem: well actually it is a simple observation which happens to be correct and presented in a neutral manner. perceptions are limited by personal biases so what may appear as harmful may actually be goodmedicine.
daiv: don't look at me, it's your problem not mine
talasiga please refer to the thread from 2001.
arbo: i just loaded up another clip. anyone else want to?
johnk: people are gonna laugh at you anyway, so get over it.
mahanp: it would be nice to share a clip of yourself
diane: like my advice is going to be life or death to someone
denny: yup figures
dale: i'm really concerned about you folks...
(sorry if i missed you, or if i quoted inaccurately, or accurately, no offense to anyone)
example2:
rob: seems unlikely you could honk the low note on that flute of yours rama
me: well i can, i blow hard. i have a really good embouchure. and i can cran, double cran with a cherry on top, and a half hole d-flat
rob: oh. (refrains .....giving beneifit of doubt)
me: yeah the mcchud is the best flute on the market. it's a rudall with a pratten bore. i modified it a bit too. used my pocket knife to gauge the embouchure.
newbie1: should i do that to my flute too?
me: sure go ahead, and stick some gum in the bore too while your at it. bazooka gum is the best.
newbie1: ok thanks alot.
rob: shouldn't really stick gum in the bore
me: well i do and it works for me and i was told by a respected teacher to do it.
rob: oh i see you learn something new everyday.
newbie2: hey that's cool just got my flute today, what kind of gum should i stick in the bore?
rob well i read that bazooka gum works well for rama
newbie2: cool! and i hear he gets a honkin' low d, i can't wait! how often should i practice?
me: i don't really, i just talk alot
newbie2: cool i'll follow you, yu know what you are talking about
rob everybody's got gum, maybe i'll get a mcchud with gum in the bore too!....
jem: i'll add mcchud to the list of respected flutemakers since he gets high reviews around here
cocusflute: i have one now too
loren: i got the slim mcchud with sugarless gum model
jimstone: i have three now, i'll write another review..
cat: mcchud's rock ! i got the bannanaboxwood model
johnk: i got one now too!
everyone's got a mcchud with a gauged embouchure and gum in the bore, sitting around reading lifetime subscriptions to flute review magazine waiting for c&f flute forum to come online for more good advice
rob: ramalamadingdong, can we hear your honking low d, the one you keep talking about, seems unlikely that one could blow a honking low note on a mcchud with 6 cracks and a gaping embouchure and bubble gum in the bore.
me: here's my clip (soundclip goes here) of honkin low d, um it's cold and i sprained my wrist, have a fat lip, and the recorder sucks ...
rob: oh thanks i listened to it. i can now hear what you are talking about, just as i suspected...seems you played a second octave F, ahem the low d is actually the bottom note"....
ronbo: i knew it...this is getting moronic
guinness: argh you just suffer from low self worth, i seek impunity.
loren: put up or shut up, fair is fair .
hugh: public judgement sucks man!
gordon: i like you guys, but not that much
cocusflute: shut up and play
cubitt: this is silly, i shall never post a clip for as long as i shall live!
dana: ditto
mary: .....
cat get a murray they rock!
cork: at the flute game alongtime, yet likes being joe the clown
eric: this is a big contradiction of terms
peeplj: ah clips don't tell you much
jimstone: who cares... i like to drool over picures of naked flutes
crookedt: seperate wheat from the chaf baby
dow: all i care about is if my son can sleep at night
jonc: here's a photo of my latest flute....
chas: don't foolishly take advice to heart
nano: be nice and not mean will ya?
jem: well actually it is a simple observation which happens to be correct and presented in a neutral manner. perceptions are limited by personal biases so what may appear as harmful may actually be goodmedicine.
daiv: don't look at me, it's your problem not mine
talasiga please refer to the thread from 2001.
arbo: i just loaded up another clip. anyone else want to?
johnk: people are gonna laugh at you anyway, so get over it.
mahanp: it would be nice to share a clip of yourself
diane: like my advice is going to be life or death to someone
denny: yup figures
dale: i'm really concerned about you folks...
(sorry if i missed you, or if i quoted inaccurately, or accurately, no offense to anyone)
example2:
rob: seems unlikely you could honk the low note on that flute of yours rama
me: well i can, i blow hard. i have a really good embouchure. and i can cran, double cran with a cherry on top, and a half hole d-flat
rob: oh. (refrains .....giving beneifit of doubt)
me: yeah the mcchud is the best flute on the market. it's a rudall with a pratten bore. i modified it a bit too. used my pocket knife to gauge the embouchure.
newbie1: should i do that to my flute too?
me: sure go ahead, and stick some gum in the bore too while your at it. bazooka gum is the best.
newbie1: ok thanks alot.
rob: shouldn't really stick gum in the bore
me: well i do and it works for me and i was told by a respected teacher to do it.
rob: oh i see you learn something new everyday.
newbie2: hey that's cool just got my flute today, what kind of gum should i stick in the bore?
rob well i read that bazooka gum works well for rama
newbie2: cool! and i hear he gets a honkin' low d, i can't wait! how often should i practice?
me: i don't really, i just talk alot
newbie2: cool i'll follow you, yu know what you are talking about
rob everybody's got gum, maybe i'll get a mcchud with gum in the bore too!....
jem: i'll add mcchud to the list of respected flutemakers since he gets high reviews around here
cocusflute: i have one now too
loren: i got the slim mcchud with sugarless gum model
jimstone: i have three now, i'll write another review..
cat: mcchud's rock ! i got the bannanaboxwood model
johnk: i got one now too!
everyone's got a mcchud with a gauged embouchure and gum in the bore, sitting around reading lifetime subscriptions to flute review magazine waiting for c&f flute forum to come online for more good advice
Last edited by rama on Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Loren
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Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
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jemtheflute
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Rama, you rock! 
(Or should that be "You idiot!"?) Brilliant!
(Or should that be "You idiot!"?) Brilliant!I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
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Rob Sharer
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Cathy Wilde
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yup, that's what I come to this board for ... entertainment!
Last edited by Cathy Wilde on Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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crookedtune
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mahanpots
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I think it would be really nice if everyone was like Rama.
Olwell Pratten.
Paddy Cronin's Jig
Limestone Rock, Silver Spear
Blasting, billowing, bursting forth with the power of 10 billion butterfly sneezes
Paddy Cronin's Jig
Limestone Rock, Silver Spear
Blasting, billowing, bursting forth with the power of 10 billion butterfly sneezes
I meant that the "hand on top" example is too simplistic. When we get intoRob Sharer wrote:Thank you! Actually, that IS my point, that any sort of simple if/then construction, such as "if we all post clips, then the less-experienced players will get shut out," is overly simplistic.fearfaoin wrote:Your point is taken, but is too simplistic.
discussions about flute physics or ornamentation or something more involved,
there is a potential for dividing lines to appear based on ability. You can believe
a clip won't change things all you want, but I've seen it happen. Peoples' bias
can, will, and has been changed by a poster's musical ability.
And maybe, in some, cases, it should. I mean, if Joanie Madden, for example,
were to give advice about ornamentation or embouchure, why shouldn't we
give her opinion more weight than Johnny Cantblow's?
