6 Keys or 8 Keys

[Ronbo]

I ain't settling for any less than 14 keys. I like the number.

[jim stone]

I've heard from one strong player and teacher in
Ireland that he takes off the bottom two keys.
He plays ITM mostly. He said Kevin Crawford did
this with his 8-key, too.

Really? The last time I saw Kevin he was playing his 8-key Grinter and very happily using the low C and C# keys. It may well be that he took the bottom keys off an 8-key flute he was playing before he got the Grinter, but if he did I'm sure it would have been because they weren't working. If you have an 8-key flute where the bottom keys won't seal at all and you therefore can't use them, or if it's a big hassle to get them to seal and you just don't want to deal with it, then it makes perfect sense to remove them. But if those keys work, no flute player in his right mind would remove them. If those keys work on your 8-key flute, you start looking for tunes where you can use them.

Right, that's what I heard, John. Just reporting,
not saying he's right (though I expect he's right about
himself). As I recall the source was David Levine.

Check Eskin's post above, for another reason why someone
might remove the bottom keys.

Several have reported on another thread that the low D
is perhaps slightly veiled on an 8 key--though this
doesn't make a prohibitive difference and can be
compensated for. Also I do think
they can add a bit to the flute's weight--that's my
impression from the Grinter, anyhow. There are
people for whom that might matter. Such reasons might
lead somebody with an 8-keyed flute who finds
s/he really isn't much using them to remove the
keys.

[flutefry]

I went to the first page of the sticky on flute videos, and where I could see the flute well enough, Seamus Egan, Matt Molloy, Kevin Crawford, and Peter Horan all had their foot joint rotated to get the foot keys out of the way. I interpret this to mean that the foot joint keys aren't used routinely, but are available if desired.

Hugh

[johnkerr]

I went to the first page of the sticky on flute videos, and where I could see the flute well enough, Seamus Egan, Matt Molloy, Kevin Crawford, and Peter Horan all had their foot joint rotated to get the foot keys out of the way. I interpret this to mean that the foot joint keys aren't used routinely, but are available if desired.

Hugh

A lot of players will rotate their foot joint to get the keys out of the way if they're playing a tune where they won't be needing them, and then rotate the keys back in whenever they know they'll be needing them. This is true of players using both six-key and eight-key flutes, and has nothing to do with the topic of keys possibly veiling the sound of the flute. Also, some players of eight-key flutes whose keys aren't functional will rotate the foot joint to get the keys out of the way rather than remove the keys.

[johnkerr]

Occasionally you'll find a tune that goes down to C, particularly for tunes in A min, C, or F (very rare). More often, you'll find tunes which do not use a C or C#, but go down from a low D to a B or A. Of course, the 7/8th keys do you no good for that situation.

There are a good few D Dorian/ D minor / D Mix tunes where the low C key comes in handy. To name some, there's Mother's Delight, The Broken Pledge, The Graf Spee, The Porthole of the Kelp, Tuttle's, that Reavy tune Leddy from Cavan, Jenny's Welcome to Charlie, Jenny Picking Cockles, etc, etc.

Hmmm, I bet if Jenny played flute she'd have an eight-key.

[johnkerr]

As I recall the source was David Levine.

Well, I know David Levine. David Levine is a friend of mine. And Jim, you're no...oh, never mind. But I guess I'll just have to ask David Levine myself to get this cleared up - if only I can find out where on the Internet he's hanging out these days.

[colomon]

I went to the first page of the sticky on flute videos, and where I could see the flute well enough, Seamus Egan, Matt Molloy, Kevin Crawford, and Peter Horan all had their foot joint rotated to get the foot keys out of the way. I interpret this to mean that the foot joint keys aren't used routinely, but are available if desired.

Peter Horan does not use those keys at all -- if you listen to "McDermott's" for instance (on Fortune Favours the Merry) you can clearly hear that he takes the low C# up an octave every time. Those keys do not work on the flute he was playing in 2006 -- I don't think any of the keys worked on that flute, actually.

If you're looking at the same videos I've seen of him on Youtube, those are all played on a previous flute of his. The impression I got talking to him was that he never used keys, but I am not absolutely certain of that.

[Cubitt]

You can buy electronic keyboards with as few as two octaves, but I don't think I'd ever consider buying an actual piano that did not have all 88 keys.

One can do whatever one wants, but having eight keys, if you are going to invest in keys at all, would be my advice. As me mum always said, "Better to have and not need than to need and not have."

Wise woman, me mum.

[jemtheflute]

Agree with Cubitt. Just because Peter Horan or MM or whoever don't use them some or all of the time, so what? If you haven't got 'em, you can't use them. If they're there, you may find a use for them.

All this stuff about weight and balance is piffle except to a very small number of people with real physiological problems. I play a R&R Patent Head or an Italian 12 key with B foot and also assorted smaller band flutes and piccolos - sure, I notice the balance difference and maybe the weight, but it is never a problem. The only one that causes me any regular physical discomfort is the piccolo (!), where my R arm is so tightly flexed at the elbow that it frequently starts to cut off the blood supply to the fore-arm. When I play my boxwood 1-key D flute it feels incredibly light and airy, but I don't drop it (nor fly away!) nor do I drop my heavy R&R when I swap back to it.

[jim stone]

As I recall the source was David Levine.

Well, I know David Levine. David Levine is a friend of mine. And Jim, you're no...oh, never mind. But I guess I'll just have to ask David Levine myself to get this cleared up - if only I can find out where on the Internet he's hanging out these days.

Glad David is your friend.
I can't say that about me and David. Such is life.
Doesn't matter terribly, I figure.
I try to be courteous and cordial whether or not people are my friends.

I sure learn a lot about flutes and music from your
posts. I'll show them to my wife when next I succumb to
the desire for an 8-keyed flute.

[talasiga]

......
You'd like to play ITM, yet also could care to play "other" music, assuming such other music could be of twelve tone, Western scale. No problem, get a Boehm flute, and with just one flute you could do it all.
......

For "other music' requirement I still prefer a keyed "Irish flute" on account of:-

* adjustability of tuning (range usually A440 - A448) for to play with a greater range of set pitch world music instruments not in current concert pitch (even ITM has this issue I believe). Even the option of two different barrels is possible for to cover other tuning range.
* more open holes than French system Boehm means glissandi option and other ornamentations not easily possible on Boehm is available
* the option of having thumbhole instead of a key for the Cnat attracts glissandi advantages for this also.
* the option for obtaining the keyed notes without keys = greater potential for obtaining microtonal articulations of the otherwise keynoted (set) articulation. For instance, in Dhrupad (the oldest extant indic classical genre) the minor third in Raag Jaunpuri is microtonally distinct from the minor third in Raag Darbaari. Lets say you are doing them with D tonic. Both raags are nominally Aeolian Mode. The F for Jaunpuri is a tad higher than the the F in Darbaari.

There is a great joy in being able to effect differences in a note through diffrent ways of playing it - embouchure technique, cross fingering, half holing and the precise keying.

[cocusflute]

Right, that's what I heard, John. Just reporting,
not saying he's right (though I expect he's right about
himself). As I recall the source was David Levine.

He can't recall ever saying anything like that.
John Kerr is a friend of his, although he's no David Levine either.
He isn't a bad John Kerr though.

[Romulo]

Can't there be a 'resurrection' icon on threads like these.
Perhaps something like this apprears with the topic?

I thought, "hey, gcollins is back, cool" until I noticed the thread was started in 2001!!!!

thank you

My favorite for ressurections is this one

[talasiga]

Even Jesus can't resurrect something that isn't dead.
Just because something got buried doesn't mean it was dead.
The topic starter may not be around but the merit of his query is alive and well. That is why there are other more recent topics started on this very issue.

The more apt question is why do people start topics about an issue when there are pre-existing topics about that very issue? I am a person and I am included in the ambit of my question.

Do some (note: SOME) Americans have a phobia about "digging up the past"? What if what we dig up is still alive/relevant? Does that make your phobia bigger or more intense? Are you afeard of things not immediately within your present grasp but which may have an underground relevance? Is this to do with being CONTROL FREAKS?

All these questions must and will be answered. David Frost first said that.

[toughknot]

Even Jesus can't resurrect something that isn't dead.
Just because something got buried doesn't mean it was dead.
The topic starter may not be around but the merit of his query is alive and well. That is why there are other more recent topics started on this very issue.

The more apt question is why do people start topics about an issue when there are pre-existing topics about that very issue? I am a person and I am included in the ambit of my question.

Do some (note: SOME) Americans have a phobia about "digging up the past"? What if what we dig up is still alive/relevant? Does that make your phobia bigger or more intense? Are you afeard of things not immediately within your present grasp but which may have an underground relevance? Is this to do with being CONTROL FREAKS?

All these questions must and will be answered. David Frost first said that.

Yes , we Americans are control freaks ,each and everyone.