OT: Important if you are interested in current politics/west

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:17 am

On 2002-11-26 11:57, Teri-K wrote:
[snip]
The only purpose all this has served is to reinforce my stead-fast, unshakable belief that religion is THE most evil force on the face of the earth.

I want no part of this.

Teri

Let me toss this notion out for general consideration:

The unshakable belief in religion (or, more likely, in what leaders say religion is), and not religion itself is the problem.

I have heard people say "the Koran does not condone...", but somebody's directing the ding-dongs who strap on bombs.

It's my notion that questioning authority should make it justify its actions or stop them--but in some places that will get you killed.

Now....what is the Homeland Security Act going to do to our civil liberties, hmmmm? I, for one, don't have an unshakable belief in the wisdom of our leaders.

M
[feeling like I'm sticking my neck out]

Michael Sullivan · Post by **Michael Sullivan** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:23 am

(Sticking my neck out even further)

Religion is evil primarily when it's not true. Not to say that all untrue religions are necessarily evil, but the true one wouldn't be evil in itself. [I mean religion very broadly here--even athiestic humanism will do.] Unfortunately but logically, all of them but (if we're lucky) one will have to turn out false.

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:23 am

Now....what is the Homeland Security Act going to do to our civil liberties, hmmmm? I, for one, don't have an unshakable belief in the wisdom of our leaders.

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 12:20 pm

Teri, I wholeheartedly agree.

Craig, it was a joke!

TubeDude, I haven't the time or the breath right now, but later I'm going to give you a small history lesson. Pay attention cause you just might learn somein'. "We are not responsible for the world's woes."-Tubedude
Beware, I'm going to take a pretty big breath.

energy · Post by **energy** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 12:43 pm

On 2002-11-26 12:23, Michael Sullivan wrote:
(Sticking my neck out even further)

Religion is evil primarily when it's not true. Not to say that all untrue religions are necessarily evil, but the true one wouldn't be evil in itself. [I mean religion very broadly here--even athiestic humanism will do.] Unfortunately but logically, all of them but (if we're lucky) one will have to turn out false.

To follow up even further on what Michael has said, even the true religion could be perverted by wicked men.

Allow me to suggest that the problem is not religion, but people themselves. History has clearly demonstrated the capacity of anyone to hate, whether driven by religious beliefs or not.

As for blowing off Bin Laden's letter as rhetoric: typically American. We are so used to poltical mumbo jumbo in our own leaders that we expect it in others. Folks, Islamics are very different from Americans. For one thing, they have morals. Anyway, quite frankly, I think it's foolish not to take this letter seriously.

Well, I hope that not many are of Teri's school of thought, and I have a specific reason. It scares me. When religion is seen as the great evil, persecution is certainly close behind. So, if(when) we get going in the war with Islam, it will be seen by Americans as a war caused by religion. History shows clearly that a nation in a bloody conflict is prone to unpredictable and unreasonable action. Thus, all religion will be labeled evil and the persecution will begin then. Don't be surprised if it happens.

My friends, now is not the time for talk.
Time is short. Action must be taken. Let us a a nation strive for peace, let us as one put our mind and heart and strength into finding a way to resolve the conflict with Islam without bloodshed. As they clearly have no intention of it, we must be the ones to offer the olive branch. If they refuse it, then the blood is on their hands, not ours.

Let us not rush into war without exploring every possiblity. I beg you, write your leaders, picket for peace(peacefully), and pray. Start petitions; if we the people do not take action, who will? The bigwigs in government do not appear motivated. I fear that the people of the United States do not see what is at stake: Total, bloody, all-out war, on civilan populations. Either we will destroy them; or they will destroy us. In their eyes, it is that simple. Do not think that they will easily give it up once it has started.

And please, enjoy your holiday season.

_________________
True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-26 13:46 ]

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:30 pm

On 2002-11-26 11:48, The Weekenders wrote:
Dont know if you are referring to me, but what the Islamists are up to all around the world summon the same response in my heart. Especially the slavery and genital mutilation because its done with such gusto. But I guess its just my Euro-Americano-centric belief system that makes me believe that those actions are wrong.....if I just see it from their way, its all o-kay. Is that it??

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-11-26 11:50 ]

Well, what the United States are doing all over the world makes me quite sick also, and since they are christian, christians do this thing, right? Now, I know another big religion that has genital mutilation on their agenda and if I am not mistaken, the majority of Americas male population are genitally mutilated. Does this mean that christians also practise genital mutilation on a regular basis? No, it is a local variation within the whole community, just like female genital mutilation is a local african variation of something that is usually referred to as opression of women, although one can very easily blame religion, especially if you want to make it look bad.

Concerning your Euro-Americano-centric belief system, please change it to Americano-centric belief system. I don't like these thing either, but I don't say that it is the fault of Islam, in the same way that I don't say that the US's breaking of the Geneva convention with the prisoners on Cuba is he fault of Christianity. In both cases it is just power-crazed lunatics wanting to get their way.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:10 pm

Osama bin Laden was the moving force behind a massive crime that took the lives of thousands.

Like nearly all such crimes, it was fundamentally the action of a coward. And he has run like a coward ever since.

He is nothing more than a criminal. Find him, take him into custody, give him a trial, convict him, put him in general population for about 10 years, and then take whatever's left of him, strap him to a gurney, and inject a lethal compound to end his life.

When he no longer breathes, there will be time to discuss the finer religious and philosophical points.

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:13 pm

Okay, try this. Substitute "moral code" where you see "religion" and see if it changes the meaning.

I'm generally in favor of moral codes of the sort one would generally think of as socially beneficial--"do unto others...," "what you do to the least of my brothers..."--more than the Old Testament "eye for an eye," which, if I understand correctly, Jesus' teachings should have negated (the eye or an eye, I mean).

I have sometimes wondered if the social/criminal problems happening now in Russia came about because when the Communists suppressed religion, they failed to replace it with another benign, mutually beneficial moral code.

Of course, I'm just speculating, 'cause I don't really know beans about Russia except what I hear on NPR.

M

energy · Post by **energy** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:20 pm

On 2002-11-26 14:30, Andreas wrote:
Well, what the United States are doing all over the world makes me quite sick also, and since they are christian, christians do this thing, right?

The United States are decidedly not Christian. By no means. Our entire culture defies Biblical Christianity.

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:22 pm

Walk, run, sprint to go see "Bowling for Columbine". It's one of the ver best movies I've ever seen and gives one of the finest lessons in American history I've ever received.
Chris

TubeDude · Post by **TubeDude** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:20 pm

A thoughtfully written piece in one of the most left wing newspapers in the UK. Just a word of background for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror. This is one of the most notorious Left wing, anti-American dailies in the UK. Hard to believe that the Daily Mirror actually published it, but it did.
________________________________________
ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - the mass murder of thousands, live on television.

As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi Concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance.

Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.

And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally.

We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.

A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.

The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that America has
behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember, remember. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember - and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex.

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.

That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking

Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that – and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.

Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system.

America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.

And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.

Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:29 pm

Very good and true article. America is surely a great county. Few if any are better. That being said we should always be on the quest of the More Perfect Union. Americans should keep two things in mind, most of the rest of the world sucks, and we should be doing better. In responce to that article this country is not the same country it was 50+ years ago. And the generation about which you speak has been sold out and forgotten. I'll get back to you later.

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:46 pm

Well, what the United States are doing all over the world makes me quite sick also, and since they are christian, christians do this thing, right? Now, I know another big religion that has genital mutilation on their agenda and if I am not mistaken, the majority of Americas male population are genitally mutilated. Does this mean that christians also practise genital mutilation on a regular basis? No, it is a local variation within the whole community, just like female genital mutilation is a local african variation of something that is usually referred to as opression of women, although one can very easily blame religion, especially if you want to make it look bad.

Concerning your Euro-Americano-centric belief system, please change it to Americano-centric belief system. I don't like these thing either, but I don't say that it is the fault of Islam, in the same way that I don't say that the US's breaking of the Geneva convention with the prisoners on Cuba is he fault of Christianity. In both cases it is just power-crazed lunatics wanting to get their way.
[/quote]

I must comment about human circumcision, as these terms have been thrown around the news and media but are not fully explained. Human reproduction terminology is used in this post.

Female circumcision involves the removal of the outer and inner vulva and clitoris. In some cultures, only the outer vulva and clitoris are removed; in other cultures, only the clitoris is removed (in some cases this also differs by region). Female circumcision is done when the girl is in her teens, under no anesthesia, and often under unsanitary conditions. The complications of female circumcision involve difficulty giving birth, difficulty menstruating, and difficulty walking and sitting. The reason why female circumcision is conducted is to keep the woman from experiencing sexual pleasure, which in many cultures is considered “dirty.” An uncircumcised woman is considered less desirable then a circumcised woman for marriage. Male circumcision involves the removal of the foreskin. This is done while the male is an infant. There are few complications with removing the foreskin as long as the procedure is conducted properly. The reason why male circumcision is done can be traced back to hygiene concerns. Years ago, people did not bath often; penile secretions and particles could collect under the foreskin. During intercourse, these elements could cause an infection in the woman. As a tradition, it continues today.

I realize that this is completely non-whistle related, however, these terms are used but not explained, (I studied this practice in cultural anthropology). Please accept my apologies if some people found this post offensive.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:57 pm

On 2002-11-26 11:57, Teri-K wrote:
The only purpose all this has served is to reinforce my stead-fast, unshakable belief that religion is THE most evil force on the face of the earth.

Atheism is a religion, too, one that requires more blind faith than any other. I speak from experience, having been an atheist most of my adult life until two years ago.

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 4:32 pm

On 2002-11-26 16:57, blackhawk wrote:
On 2002-11-26 11:57, Teri-K wrote:
The only purpose all this has served is to reinforce my stead-fast, unshakable belief that religion is THE most evil force on the face of the earth.
Atheism is a religion, too, one that requires more blind faith than any other. I speak from experience, having been an atheist most of my adult life until two years ago.

Convenient that you left out my words directly after the quote. I expressly said I'll have no more part in this thread. I will not debate theology and your god. Leave it!

Teri