Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips

[Ronbo]

This sort of "suggestion" seems to come up regularly in special interest forums. Someone, sometimes for good reasons, will decide that information, suggestions, critiques, etc., from the "lower classes" (less knowledgeable or experienced)should either not be allowed, or that everyone who shares an opinion should have to "put up or shut up" and stand up to a rectal examination before their input is accepted. Inevitably, the suggestion stirs up some heated discussion, and just as inevitably, the suggestion fails under its own weight.

In one forum(non-musical), some "professionals" decided to belabor the forum owner to restrict "non-professionals" from even reading their little "professional" forum, much less post answers on it. A great deal of ill will was caused, mainly by a few professionals who seemed to have too much time on their hands, behaving like morans instead of tending to business. Lots of discussion, some heated exchanges, and more than a little name-calling occurred. Being a wise site owner, and non too eager to muddle with a successful website, the Dale of the website ignored the suggestions. Eventually, everything settled back down, and no one was the worse for it.

This one too, shall fade away. And no one will be the worse for it. In listening to advice or criticism of any sort on any forum, the best rule seems to be "Caveat Emptor", or whatever that was supposed to mean.

Most people are able to suss out who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't, given enough time. If you want to post clips, or critique them, I say please go ahead. Just weigh the responses carefully before you act on them. Can't be that tough.

[Rob Sharer]

So....are you going to post a clip, or not?

Seriously, now, using intentionally inflammatory language is a poor way to argue. Even the user knows it's intended to enflame; why else would everything appear in quotes, e.g. "lower classes," "professional," and "put up or shut up?" Really. Can we discuss this without resorting to that sort of thing? Cheers,

Rob

[Gordon]

So....are you going to post a clip, or not?

Seriously, now, using intentionally inflammatory language is a poor way to argue. Even the user knows it's intended to enflame; why else would everything appear in quotes, e.g. "lower classes," "professional," and "put up or shut up?" Really. Can we discuss this without resorting to that sort of thing? Cheers,

Rob

Rob, the fact is, you want us all to post clips because you're a Sharer. (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Now, that out of the way, I think (more seriously) that there are probably many different reasons why people do or don't post. Arbo very concisely (rare 'round these parts) summed up why he felt people should post, and Rob thought it brought a better sense of community. But is that why we're ALL here? I spend a lot (and I mean a lot) of my private time playing and learning new tunes. I know when I suck, and when I've got it down. Sometimes I mess up at a session or a gig. Sometimes I'm on fire. I'm a decent player, will never be an iconic one, but I work on it, anyway.
I like it here, most times, at C&F. But I don't want to be critiqued or applauded, necessarily, for my playing. If I record something I'm proud of, that I've done recently, I'll post it. Most of the time I record, it's hastily, in a cramped and awkward seat in front of my computer, to check how I sound on a new tune. Usually, its flawed, and I learn from this. Do I post this clip to be told what's obvious? Sometimes, the clip is good, or better than good. Do I post that one, so people can tell me it's good?
I would love to record a proper account of my playing, for myself if not for C&F, and I will, and probably soon. But my reasons and the timing of that post is not because I need to be accepted, or to be gathered in the arms of the forum's ethernet hug. I like you guys, but not that much.
This all said, I've greatly cut back on giving advice; I gave much more years ago, when I was still studying with a great teacher, and it was more a passing on of what I was currently learning than experience. With experience, I've found I don't need to teach everyone what I think.
I try to listen more, and not necessarily to clips.

[Jayhawk]

I think I first posted a clip to the board in early 2003 - less than 6 months after seriously starting to play the flute. I've posted several other times since then...so, I'm obviously someone who is not against posting. However, I can think of several reasons why someone might not want to post:

1) Technical know how. Rob found someone to record a clip for him because he has the idea we should all post. However, if you don't have the technical know-how, and don't feel people should have to post a clip, why in the heck would you seek out someone to record a clip?

A secondary part of this is if you want to record, but you don't know how to "clean up" a recording, add "reverb" and do some of the other technical stuff I've heard people say they've done when recording - you might not want to post a clip because you know you can't make it sound good from a technical standpoint. My recordings are just me and the cheap mic that came with my first computer which I bought in 1997.

2) Quality of recording equipment. While I've posted clips recently, and my playing itself is improving, the recordings sound worse than they did on my old computer. Maybe the soundcard isn't as good on this computer? Maybe it's because the computer is now in an acoustically dead room? Maybe it's because I don't value recording enough to buy a good mic and continue using the old one I have? The point here is...if you don't have good quality equipment, clips will sound grainy and you'll lose much of what makes your tone sound good when listened to live.

3) You simply do not agree that you need to post a clip. I agree with this this philosophy despite having posted clips. I've only posted to share a neat new tune (to me it's new at least) or to ask for critiques of my playing. Why should anyone force someone to post a clip or claim people are wrong to not want to post a clip? Who are we to judge another on this issue?

That said, I see nothing wrong with folks seeking out the knowledge of people who have posted clips and giving more heed on playing advice from those folks. However, just because you can play a tune perfectly does not mean you can provide a more valid opinion on flute weights, hole size, embouchure cuts, etc - there are lots of things we discuss on this forum that do not require you to be a good player.

Finally, I happen to know my flute teacher has posted to the C&F board 5 times...and not a single one is a post of his playing. Should I not listen to his advice because he has not posted? On the net you don't really know who someone is, and you might miss some really good advice, were it offered, if you base your view of a person solely on whether or not they have posted a clip.

Eric

[Ronbo]

So....are you going to post a clip, or not?

Seriously, now, using intentionally inflammatory language is a poor way to argue. Even the user knows it's intended to enflame; why else would everything appear in quotes, e.g. "lower classes," "professional," and "put up or shut up?" Really. Can we discuss this without resorting to that sort of thing? Cheers,

Rob

Just quoting you on the "put up or shut up" phrase. Not arguing with you precisely, just pointing out that this sort of thread usually leads nowhere at all. I have listened to your clips. You play well. However, that gives you no right to attempt to redefine the requirements to post, comment, or otherwise critique. That is a job for the forum owners and moderators. If they are smart, they will avoid it like the plague.

Many others have submitted valid arguments against your suggestion, the upshot of which would be to freeze much of the discussion on the entire board. Except the proctology forum, where all it apparently takes is a willingness to make a fool of oneself. You seem to be capable of making distinctions among the suggestions without hearing a clip of the player. I suggest that most people are able to do the same thing.

[daiv]

haha. i know this not constructive, but i'll say it anyways: i think matt molloy should post a clip (to verify he can play), and then write the whole website for us. we all have nothing valid to say!

[Rob Sharer]

Rob, the fact is, you want us all to post clips because you're a Sharer. (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Yes, but I've been keeping it to myself because I'm a Secret Sharer....

As I expected, many people agree with what I proposed, and many disagree. What I don't like is mischaracterization of my arguments. I'm not trying to change the requirements to post here. Practically the first thing I said is that no one should be forced to post a clip!

Let me put the rest a slightly different way: if you're engaged in a heated debate on the C&F flute forum on some matter of flute technique, sound production, X vs. Y, or what have you, don't be surprised if someone asks you to post a clip to back up your arguments. I've noticed that some folks here consider it a breach of etiquette to be asked, while I personally think it's a perfectly legitimate request. It's fine if you don't want to comply, but it may raise the suspicion that you're hiding something.

Everyone has an opinion, and they're all equally valid, as opinions. However, I would take Molloy's opinion over Daiv's, for example, because Molloy has his playing fairly well together at this point. That doesn't mean that they are the only two opinions in the room; we're not appointing a king here, but if someone makes a strong claim I for one would like to hear what they're talking about, not just read about it. For what it's worth, plenty of folks dislike Molloy's whole approach, and would be happy to disagree with him.

The point is, this notion of a dichotomy or a pecking order, or the one that a few more clips would bring this board to a groaning halt, are ridiculous exaggerations of the slippery slope sort. I would never want this forum to descend into that sort of hierarchical nonsense; as with most hierarchies, it would end up being an artificial construct, over-simplifying the complex reality of the situation. Flute playing is not a contest! You can't tell the rest of the world, "Molloy is a better player than Flatley," any more than you can say "Cocus is better than Rob." That's just another opinion. Posting a clip is not going to force anyone, once and for all, into their proper place in the C&F pecking order. Don't you see the beauty of it? WE'RE ALL GOING TO DISAGREE ABOUT THAT AS WELL!!! By our very argumentative nature, we will have saved ourselves from the hegemony of the hierarchy. Now, let's trust ourselves to do the right thing. Cheers,

[Rob Sharer]

Just quoting you on the "put up or shut up" phrase.

Differences of opinion aside, it was actually Loren who used the above phrase, not me. Shine up those specs!

Rob

[pancelticpiper]

I myself don't really care one way or the other about this.
But, when Peter Laban posted several clips of his playing as part of his whistle identification challenge, I really sat up and took notice..."that is really good playing!" I thought. Now when I see him post he's much more to me than a name and an avatar, he's a musician whom I respect.
I am technically challenged and don't know how to post a sound clip, but anybody can go to my website and hear me play.

[mahanpots]

Thanks for reminding us that you can sometimes go to someone's website to hear a sample.

Speaking of websites - Rob, I clicked on your www and it took me to a RobSharer.com, but it had nothing to do with the Rob Sharer I know.

Michael

[Rob Sharer]

Yah...new website coming in '08. Cheers,

Rob

[Guinness]

Let me put the rest a slightly different way: if you're engaged in a heated debate on the C&F flute forum on some matter of flute technique, sound production, X vs. Y, or what have you, don't be surprised if someone asks you to post a clip to back up your arguments. I've noticed that some folks here consider it a breach of etiquette to be asked, while I personally think it's a perfectly legitimate request. It's fine if you don't want to comply, but it may raise the suspicion that you're hiding something.

(bolding is my doing).

Being asked to prove a point with a clip is silly, as much as using "Wanna make a bet?" or "Let's step outside." to settle an argument. The issue is credibility and if you must prove yourself to others (to establish self-worth) then yes, do post a clip.

Litmus test: if your clip makes it to my mp3 player or even better, if it actually gets burned to a disk, then you really are decent. Sad to say, but only a very few people have succeeded so far. For those who didn't make it, well I'll still read what you have to say, even if you pontificate and your playing sucks.

I suggest posting a clip if your goal is to have fun, entertain, show off, get laid, get a critique, advertise a new album, whatever.

[Loren]

Yah...new website coming in '08. Cheers,

Rob

Yo, Rip Van Sharer, Um, it is '08........


Loren

[chas]

Let me make a few points, one of which I've made before. The one I've made before is that anyone who doesn't read a board before taking some advice to heart deserves whatever happens. I read this board (without posting) and all the archives, going back to the previous incarnation, before even taking up the flute. It's not rocket science to figure out who knows his stuff.

That said, I really like the whole idea of sharing clips. I think it brings about a sense of camaraderie that's not possible just exchanging words. I post clips not to prove something (there's damn little I can prove), but out of a sense of community. I like hearing others' clips not to judge them but to see how my virtual friends play. Going back to the previous paragraph, I've never been surprised by what I've heard -- I had a pretty good estimate of who really had chops, who was a learner, who thought he had chops but didn't, etc. Also I'm very thankful to the members who post constructive criticism of the posted clips. I can't think of the last time something negative, in the sense of not constructive, was posted in response to a clip. Some debate, of course, but nothing that wasn't constructive.

Another thing is nobody can force someone to submit a clip. This should be obvious, but that's not apparent from some of the discussion. I don't post clips because Rob Sharer or David Levine says I have to -- Heck, at any given time I don't know whether either one is 500 miles or 4000 miles too far away to beat me up. I post clips because it's what I want to do. I feel no pressure at all. I really don't expect anyone to take my opinions any more or less seriously because of them.

Finally, I don't care whether anyone posts or not, just please record yourself. And listen to the recording. You may play much better or worse than you think. I consistently surprise myself by my recordings -- some aspects much better, some much worse than I would have thought.

[rama]

In the first place, this is the Internet, and as an old saying goes, one should believe nothing they hear, and only half of what they see.

Do you really think people are faking their clips? Oh wait, you've never listened to any. What in the world are you trying to say?

Rob

there is very little, if any, sensible argument presented against rob's ideas, disappointingly, despite all the negative spin that has arisen.

i would encourage all to post soundclips if you want to. it's easy fun and we can help. regardless, a reasonable suggestion to post soundclips is way more on-topic in this flute forum than intellectual bickering, tapdancing, pathological backpeddling, and proctological pompousity.

i faked my clips. rob made me do it.