Tonguing and glottal stops

[norcalbob]

I recently got a copy of the Mad for Trad flute tutorial with Seamus Egan. I like it a lot and am enjoying playing along with the videos.

In the beginning section he demonstrates separating notes and adding definition by using glottall stops where he interrupts the airflow by briefly making a gutteral K sound in the back of the throat. Coming from a Boehm flute background, I have always done this by tonguing notes and find it a more natural technique for me. It is pretty easy for me to switch to the glottal technique, but it doesn't feel as natural and has a slightly different quality to it which is hard to describe other than the slightly noticeable K versus T sound. I also find I can easily add separation by just adding a little stronger pulse of air from the diaphragm.

Does it really make much of a difference as to which method to use when learning ITM on the flute? And, if so, why would one method be preferred over the other?

[cocusflute]

Does it really make much of a difference as to which method to use when learning ITM on the flute?

Yes

And, if so, why would one method be preferred over the other?

As the man said, if you have to ask I can't tell you.
Just keep listening.

[Cork]

Hello, norcalbob, and hello, cocusflute, we meet again!

Last year I threw a virtual fit at the notion of glottal stops, for such a thing is altogether contrary to my Boehm training.

However, I came to understand that glottal stops are a traditional aspect of ITM, and thank you, cocusflute.

[cocusflute]

You're welcome. But don't think that being nice to me will blunt my sharp tongue or warm my cold disposition.
I am at an age that allows a graceful transition from asshole to crank.

[norcalbob]

You're welcome. But don't think that being nice to me will blunt my sharp tongue or warm my cold disposition.
I am at an age that allows a graceful transition from asshole to crank.

That's funny...so it wasn't just my imagination in thinking that your first reply was a little "short." Of course, all of use will undergo the "graceful transition" to varying degrees as our prefrontal cortex changes with age. The stereotypical "stubborn, grumpy old man" is not as much a willful choice as we think. Sounds like you are enjoying the journey...

BTW, I promise to never never start a post again without making a search first. I just looked up glottal stops and found enough controversy to keep me reading all evening.

[daiv]

it sounds like you are resistant to learn them. that's ok. the way i like to approach is to learn how to do something, especially if not learning it is "easier."

the first time you do glottal stops, they wont feel right, compared to tonguing. usually, the first time you do something different, it wont feel solid, and you probably wont get the results you want.

i would suggest sticking to glottal tonguing for a couple months or years and then making your mind... you'll be able to go back to tonguing if you want.

[norcalbob]

it sounds like you are resistant to learn them. that's ok. the way i like to approach is to learn how to do something, especially if not learning it is "easier."

I'm not resistant to learn them, daiv, I was just wondering if tonguing was acceptable or if there was a compelling tonal, technical, or historical reason for using glottal stops. I can hear some slight differences but, to my ear, the tonguing sounds pretty good as well, and I am experienced in varying my tonguing for different degrees of articulation and volume already. I'm sure folks who are experienced with glottal stops can do the same and more.

I was trying both this afternoon, and they both sounded pretty good to me. So I was just curious. I didn't conduct a search before I made the post, which was a mistake, because, once I did make a search, I found that this topic has been discussed exhaustively.

Your advise is well taken. I'll l use both and see how it goes.

[Denny]

I promise to never never start a post again without making a search first.

you will live to regret that statement.

I was just wondering if tonguing was acceptable or if there was a compelling tonal, technical, or historical reason for using glottal stops.

yes, if lightly (and it isn't obvious) and yes of course

[norcalbob]

I promise to never never start a post again without making a search first.

you will live to regret that statement.

I had my fingers crossed...

[Denny]

doesn't work here

we do cross fingering
not finger crossing

[brotherwind]

But don't think that being nice to me will blunt my sharp tongue or warm my cold disposition.
I am at an age that allows a graceful transition from asshole to crank.

[jemtheflute]

doesn't work here

we do cross fingering
not finger crossing

Sometimes we even do furious fingering!

[Denny]

doesn't work here

we do cross fingering
not finger crossing

Sometimes we even do furious fingering!

[daiv]

it sounds like you are resistant to learn them. that's ok. the way i like to approach is to learn how to do something, especially if not learning it is "easier."

I'm not resistant to learn them, daiv, I was just wondering if tonguing was acceptable or if there was a compelling tonal, technical, or historical reason for using glottal stops. I can hear some slight differences but, to my ear, the tonguing sounds pretty good as well, and I am experienced in varying my tonguing for different degrees of articulation and volume already. I'm sure folks who are experienced with glottal stops can do the same and more.

I was trying both this afternoon, and they both sounded pretty good to me. So I was just curious. I didn't conduct a search before I made the post, which was a mistake, because, once I did make a search, I found that this topic has been discussed exhaustively.

Your advise is well taken. I'll l use both and see how it goes.

fintan vallely describes 5 types of irish articulation:

tonguing with a t
tonguing with a k
glottal tonguing (which is with your throat, different than a k)
taps
cuts
using the air pressure as you described to separate notes

i used to think that it was not worth doing. but, if you start to get the hang of it, it will actually change the way you direct your air in to the flute, and there will be some sounds you can get out of your flute that you can not get out of it without glottal stopping. although it is useful for separating two notes of the same pitch, i think it is more useful for adding emphasis to other notes that are not repeated, as per the sound changes.

what's even more, is that on my playing my silver flute with my copley headjoint, i can get a pretty wooden sound, but if i start to do glottal stops, it transforms it fully to that irish sound. i used to think it was an option in getting that traditional sound, but after watching how it literally changed the sound and response i could get out of my silver flute, i am more likely to think that it is all but mandatory.

[Denny]

tonguing with a t
tonguing with a k
glottal tonguing (which is with your throat, different than a k)
taps
cuts
using the air pressure as you described to separate notes

dang Daiv, he ain't gonna know what ta work on first!

yer man left out the hardest one.....burps