Need advice for getting a reedy tone

[daiv]

make sure your headjoint is rolled in. that is a biggy. many silver flutists line up straight, or roll out. you should roll in for your wooden flute. a good rule of thumb is that the further embouchure edge should be lined up with the middle of the finger holes. not only do i line up my wooden flute this way, but my silver one as well. if you dont roll in your headjoint, you will never be able to blow into the flute.

I think this is the wrong approach. I think you should identify how you want the headjoint to be positioned against your lips, then adjust the body of the flute to suit your hands. If it so happens that the headjoint ends up straight in line, or rolled out, so be it. There is no right way, so statements predicting failure based on one position or another are specious. I, for one, pretty much line everything up straight, and somehow I manage to get the odd squeak out of my flute all the same. Cheers,

Rob

for sake of expediency, i did not describe any sort of trial and error process, and trusted that they would adjust if things did not work.

i never predicted failure about headjoint angle, but only a rule of thumb. i hinted at difficulty if you dont cover the embouchure hole, which as james galway showed, can be done at any angle. however, wooden flutes were originally designed to be rolled in a certain amount. by analzying models made for and by nicholson, the amount that was marked on the flutes to be rolled in as far as i describe.

personally, i do not look at how my headjoint is set up. i adjust it by feel, and by using my hands. sometimes it is heavily rolled in, and sometimes it is straight.

my headjoint angle and embouchure change daily, depending on my mood, the sound i am going for, and the room i am in, all of which fluctuate widely.

[Aanvil]

Honestly, who cares what an embouchure looks like? After all, it's the sound, and only the sound, which matters.

What works best for you IS what works best for you, period!

Silly Cork... did you even read my post all the way?

We are in total agreement.

Besides... Daiv seems to have a similar finding.

How else do we try do describe what we are doing?

As I stated all of our lips are different... however my friend... we all have lips.


There may be some applicable technique.

Yes, I read all of your post, and my response was meant to be completely in support of you, no offense intended, Aanvil.

Playing a flute never was a natural thing for a human to do, so perhaps some of the requirements to play a flute could also be something other than natural, maybe even unusual. However, I'm going to stick with what I said, in that whatever works for you IS just right for you, uniquely.

Basically, we each work with what we each have to work with, and that's the way the cookie crumbled, but there is a satisfaction to being adventurous, eh?

LOL... wine and late night posting don't often mix I think.

Well then... we'll have to just agree to agree.

[Denny]

'at's enough you two......

[Rob Sharer]

if you dont roll in your headjoint, you will never be able to blow into the flute.

I'm sorry, but isn't this a prediction of failure? Never is a long, long time. Cheers,

Rob

[johnkerr]

if you dont roll in your headjoint, you will never be able to blow into the flute.

I'm sorry, but isn't this a prediction of failure? Never is a long, long time. Cheers,

Rob

There are many great flute players who don't roll their headjoints in or out, but instead play with the embouchure hole lined up with the tone holes. One such great flute player would be Catherine McEvoy.

There are many hack flute players who don't roll their headjoints in or out, but instead play with the embouchure hole lined up with the tone holes. One such hack flute player would be me.

And apparently there are some flute players who believe that the flute can never be played without rolling in the headjoint. There are also still some folks who believe the world is flat, or that global warming is a myth.

Really, as I said in a thread a while ago that I'm too lazy to look up now, and as Rob Sharer said in this thread, it matters not whether the headjoint is rolled in or out with respect to the tone holes. What matters is how the player's embouchure is aligned with the embouchure hole. There's a "sweet spot" on every flute where it all comes together and the sound is as perfect as that player will ever be able to make. Once this sweet spot is found, some players find it more comfortable to roll the headjoint in or out relative to the tone holes when assembling the flute so that they can comfortably maintain the sweet spot without physically rolling the entire flute to that position with their hands and arms. Maybe more players have to do this than not, I don't know. But it's a myth to say that the headjoint absolutely has to be rolled in to get a good reedy tone out of the flute.

[Dana]

On the Boehm flute, I play with the headjoint rotated inward a little bit. On my Gallagher (and other simple-system wood flutes I've played), I have to rotate the headjoint inward substantially more, mainly for hand comfort. This fits with Rob's approach - I find the embouchure placement "sweet spot" for each particular instrument, and then adjust for optimal hand comfort.

As for the original purpose of this thread: I agree with Terry's approach of blowing down into the flute to get that reedy sound. In addition to that, I'd recommend playing with a smaller, more focused aperture, and a faster air-stream. (We Boehm-type players prefer the term "focused" to "tight").

[monkey587]

There are many great flute players who don't roll their headjoints in or out, but instead play with the embouchure hole lined up with the tone holes. One such great flute player would be Catherine McEvoy.

She encouraged me to roll the headjoint out on my flute to improve intonation and projection. It worked, but I never got the hang of playing that way before I went on to experiment with something else. Also, it turned out that my flute was leaking from about 20 places...

[norcalbob]

Whew...there is a lot for me to digest here. Thanks so much to each of you for taking the time to share your wisdom and experiences. Your posts are enlightening, and Cork, your flute physics explanation was very interesting and understandable, even for my skewed, right-brain comfort zone. I will certainly be experimenting with the various suggestions that have been offered.

There seem to be some common generalities regarding getting a reedy tone and embouchure development presented so far:

1) Direct the air stream more downward and somewhat toward the foot of the flute.

2) Try and keep the embouchure small and focused, and maintain good air stream speed in the lower notes.

4) Experiment with covering more of the embouchure hole with the lower lip.

3) Find the sweet spot for your own embouchure, and then adjust the rest of the flute so you can be comfortable and more consistent in maintaining that tone.

4) More than anything else, remember that there is not a recipe that fits for everyone. Listen to ITM and develop a aural memory of the tone you want to develop, and then experiment with your embouchure and flute alignment and find what works best for you. This not a one size fits all process.

O'k I'm off for some more experimentation!

[Cork]

I'm new at this, so take whatever I say as the voice of inexperience.

Anyway, one day I accidentally put my flute together with the head joint rolled in so that the embouchure hole was at a 45 degree angle. As I was playing I was wondering why it sounded so good. When I put the flute down I was shocked to see how it had been put together. I do it that way now on purpose.

Also one day I experimented with totally relaxed lips instead of trying to have a tight mouth and all that frowning business. On my boxwood flute that seems to work the best to get a good clear tone (rather than a breathy weak one). On my folk flute a little tighter works well but more relaxed works better on the higher notes.

I'll have to see what happens if I try to aim more toward the foot. I've never heard of that one before.

Anyway, that's all to say that I think you have to experiment. Maybe a hard frown will work for you. Doesn't seem to do anything for me except make my face hurt.

Just some, hopefully constructive comments...

Relaxed lips work best, so you are on to that one.

The frown you refer to could perhaps be more accurately described as a flat smile, perhaps only slightly downwards at the very ends of the mouth.

As has already been said, putting the flute together with all of the holes in line with each other, including the embouchure and the tone holes, really is a good approach, although some deviation is allowable.

That thing about being able to blow a grain of rice away from the chin is a good example of what an embouchure should be able to do.

Yes, yes, there are so many details to getting it right, so hang in there!

[Cork]

...LOL... wine and late night posting don't often mix I think. :party:

Well then... we'll have to just agree to agree...

LOL

I'll drink to that!

However, I stay away form the hard stuff, or my posts could become far less than coherent.

;-)

[Aanvil]

This fellow can make quite a honk.

Its a useful resource for tunes.

http://irishflute.podbean.com/

[Cork]

...There seem to be some common generalities regarding getting a reedy tone and embouchure development presented so far:

1) Direct the air stream more downward and somewhat toward the foot of the flute.

2) Try and keep the embouchure small and focused, and maintain good air stream speed in the lower notes...

Just a couple of comments, Bob...

A flute plays more quietly with less breath, and more loudly with more breath. That said, blowing with more breath increases the volume of the flute, but also sharpens the tone, and that is where blowing downwards comes in, to flatten the tone sufficiently to compensate. Also, to begin, try blowing straight across the flute until you have a good grip on that, for that is a fundamental skill. Once you have that down, however, then try blowing slightly more toward the foot, to better "fill" the flute, which increases volume potential.

Keeping the embouchure small and focused develops a brighter sound, but if you need that reedy sound, keep the focus, but try spreading the air stream outwards laterally, slightly. This is much more difficult to explain than to do, so, please experiment.

You're looking good!

[Whistlin'Dixie]

This fellow can make quite a honk.


http://irishflute.podbean.com/

sigh
My Hero

M

[norcalbob]

I have to admit, Aanvil, I was tipping the wine glass last night as well...a great big, robust California Zin.

Thanks for the Irish tunes link.

And now for I think I'll get the Zin again

[rforbes]

Can't resist adding some comments--even if they are redundant with some of the previous ones.

I think it is a bit hard to generalize about positioning the embouchure hole in or out with respect to the finger holes, simply because the portrusion of the jaw and the length of the upper lip is SO different between people that the blowing angle is bound to be different as well. Experimentation is good to find the angle that works best for you on a new flute--it may be different than the old one!

I like Philip Bate's book "The Flute" quite a bit. He observes: "Broadly speaking, flautists recognize two types of embouchure--tight and relaxed--and these are generally associated with wooden and metal flutes respectively. The wooden flute...requires...more forceful blowing...These requirements give rise to a muscular embouchure...The genius of the metal flute is of a lighter and more ethereal sort, and these instruments respond best to the relaxed embouchure." Admittedly, you can develop a style on the Boehm flute with a tight embouchure--nevertheless, I think there is something in what he says. Also, my understanding is (bracing for flames from Boehm experts here ) that modern Boehm technique is strongly influenced by the French school of the mid-1900s which emphasized a relatively relaxed embouchure. (Doesn't it feel odd to refer to "the 1900's" ?)

I think a reedy tone and the hard bottom D are related to a relatively intense air stream (which doesn't necessarily imply ear-splitting volume). Although muscle tension is generally to be avoided if possible, a more intense air stream has a tendency to puff out the lips, which destroys the embouchure shape. So what Bate and others are talking about is maintaining just enough muscular tension in the lips to _counterbalance_ the force of an intense air stream so that the shape of the embouchure can be maintained...

Rob