A Whistle Challenge for Peter Laban
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CranberryDog
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Not in general, but I think some threads might need locking to facilitate aDale wrote:Would anyone like to argue that this chronic tension between the know-littles and the know-a-lots, and the apparent poisoning effect it has had on the board, could be solved by a different approach to moderation?
collective underwear debunching.
I'd have the same gut reaction, though the question then is, do the learners getDale wrote:... if I was forced to choose between losing the finest and most experienced musicians and losing all of the beginner/intermediate learners, I'd lose the most experienced musicians, who need a forum like this less.
much out of it if the experienced are absent?
OTOH, I once frequented a forum on an old bulatin board service where the
experts had such a lock that newbies never posted anymore. There was no
point because their questions were constantly derided and their contributions
ignored and deficated upon. That sucked mightily.
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Dale
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Good question, of course, and I think I have to say that the marketplace speaks. One day, I'm certain, C&F will wither away, most likely when someone develops a better mousetrap. But, in the meantime, people are still coming, still posting, leaving--and some of those come back. Somebody's getting something out of it. Even the people complaining on this thread are evidently getting something out of it, or they wouldn't be posting. Maybe just the pleasure of posting their critique, but that's something.fearfaoin wrote: .... the question then is, do the learners get
much out of it if the experienced are absent?
There you go. If someone can show me a forum where newbies and hard-bitten veterans coexist in harmony, do let me know. Seriously.OTOH, I once frequented a forum on an old bulatin board service where the
experts had such a lock that newbies never posted anymore. There was no
point because their questions were constantly derided and their contributions
ignored and deficated upon. That sucked mightily.
To more than one of the excellent players who routinely complain about the atmosphere of the board and the rotten attitude of the less-experienced, I have offered to beatify these players and provide them with a kind of board endorsement of his or her status as a highly skilled and knowledgeable player. A kind of uber-mentor designation. No takers to date.
But, I'd absolutely start an "Ask the Experts" forum which allowed only expert players to respond to questions and didn't permit disagreements from lesser players. If (a) we could arrive at a consensus on who the Experts are and (b) they'd agree to do it. As unwieldy as (a) would be, (b) might be the bigger challenge.
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FJohnSharp
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- Tell us something.: I used to be a regular then I took up the bassoon. Bassoons don't have a lot of chiff. Not really, I have always been a drummer, and my C&F years were when I was a little tired of the drums. Now I'm back playing drums. I mist the C&F years, though.
- Location: Kent, Ohio
I agree--and I've learned a lot here, but my point is that there is only so much you can learn here and at some point you need live experience with other players and listening to recordings and such. But the great part about here is that people show you what to listen to and they help you understand it.Bloomfield wrote:I don't think I agree with b). I have learned so much through chiff & fipple. The way it works is that you read to get a sense of who has gotten already where you are trying to go. If you don't just talk about it but are actually working on your music, it won't be hard to tell what's what. Then you listen closely to what that poster says, even if you don't understand yet why that poster says what they say how they say it. All my teachers have had a habit of answering the question I should have asked rather than the question I did ask. Without the chiffboard I doubt I'd have gotten as deeply into it as I have. Thank you, Peter, and thank you Steve! (And many others, too.)FJohnSharp wrote:For the serious, one can learn enough to know that a) there is a ton more to learn, b) it's doubtful you can learn it here. The people who really only want to learn to play will find what they need to get started in that direction, thanks to the postings of the many talented and experienced people we've had here.
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Jerry Freeman
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I've been watching this thread with considerable sadness, and I believe I've finally determined what it is I'm sad about.Romulo wrote:You could start by locking ironic cynical threads that contain personal attacks up from the title, instead of something that gives some positive contribution...
They say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Well, in this instance, it appears to me, a personal attack is in the mind of the beholder. There's nothing in the title of this thread that I can interpret as anything but a reasonable and what I interpreted as playful response to the original thread by Peter, in which Peter used the words, "Put up or shut up."
What this looks like to me is a lot of people looking for reasons to take offense rather than looking for an opportunity for discussion and reasonable debate about a subject we all share an interest and even in many cases, a passion for.
I don't think it's really up to Dale to baby sit this group in an effort to keep us from this kind of squabbling.
I think it's much more up to us to better handle the way we choose to take what others post. Again, you can choose to take offense or you can choose not to take offense.
I propose that we, every one of us, make a concerted effort every time we see a post that rubs us the wrong way, to start with two ideas:
1. How can I participate in this discussion/debate, even if I passionately disagree with what's being said, without taking offense, and
2. What is the best effort I can make in the process, not to give offense myself.
For someone seriously interested in the subject, a thread that runs the way this one did is a profound and tragic waste of an opportunity to gain insight and information, to dialog with friends from around the world and from many different backgrounds, to mentor many who are enthusiastic to learn from those here who know more than they do.
Please, folks. Let's try to find our better selves and and remember what it is we're here for.
Best wishes,
Jerry
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MTGuru
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Some good points and food for thought here, all around, despite the temperature. And I'm glad that Peter added his voice to the thread.
Of course, I mean California as symbolic of the ITM diaspora, the one I'm most familiar with, not as a special case deserving special attention. In my direct and indirect experience, the situation here is fairly typical of the "session scene" in other parts of the US and beyond with active communities of ITM enthusiasts. Some of which have played a historically significant role in the evolution and preservation of ITM outside the core.
Looking to the musicians who "have the music" is definitely something that serious players here do every day. It's not a complete bubble. In some cases, we need look no further than the next chair at the session for the accomplished first-generation Irish musician who has grown up in the core, and brought their knowledge and technique and, yes, attitudes. They and their students are a constant reality check. Not to mention that many of us have made the trek to the core, and come away with the better understanding you refer to, at least to a degree.
I'm not suggesting a bizarre reverse exchange so that core musicians can learn California ITM, whatever that might be. But there are aspects of the way ITM occurs here that are quite different from, say, West Clare. And awareness on the part of more core musicians of those peculiarities might help them to see what they might regard as silliness in a different light, as sincere people simply trying to incorporate the music and instruments into their lives in a way that makes sense to them.
To cite one example: I know a number of whistle enthusiasts, both online and off, for whom the connection between ITM and whistling is not necessarily that strong. They may be church musicians, New Age musicians, Irish punk musicians, coffeehouse folk musicians, classical musicians, or just "hobbyists" who happen to enjoy playing an accessible folk instrument. For them, serious ITM may be the "background radiation" of their interest in whistling, but not the main focus.
Some may enjoy learning a handful of tunes and airs at any level of authenticity or not, for the satisfaction of feeling close to their Irish "roots". Some may be adult learners rediscovering a love of playing any kind music, that their lives never allowed them to pursue. Some may enjoy the challenge of mastering a tricky Generation. Some may love the airy whisper of a Clarke, or the loud voice of an Abell, simply because it sounds good to them in their kitchen or bathroom. Some may enjoy collecting expensive and inexpensive whistles of all makes, sizes and materials, and comparing notes about them, the way that people may enjoy collecting anything. The list of motivations is endless.
I guess it's arguable whether the opinions and perceptions that arise out of these very different experiences are either legitimate or silly when viewed from the standpoint of serious ITM. But they are definitely part of the reality of whistle playing in California and the States, and I think a major component of Chiff & Fipple. And seeing firsthand the way that these different interests and people interact here might help core musicians to see past what they might otherwise regard as misguided aberrations. That's mostly what I meant.
Sure, I can imagine that's so, and I understand the impulse of experts to find amusement in amateur discussions. It's human nature, and an aspect of any esoteric field. But it does put amateurs in the awkward position of being possibly laughed at by some of the very people they may genuinely admire. It's one of the trickier aspects of world interest in ITM, though perhaps unavoidable.Peter Laban wrote:More people than you realise come here to read 'for a laugh', I have been asked on several occasions why I bother with 'that nonsense'.
That's understandable too. Serious players play music, and amateur online discussions are a distraction or just not their cup of tea. Yet some of the most prestigious players I've met in person have seemed the most open to reaching out to amateurs, despite the silliness. After all, those amateurs may be the vanguard of a good part of their audience. And it's a shame that more don't have your patience or tolerance or time to participate at some level.Peter Laban wrote:People don't take part here because they don't want to waste time on that sort of silly discussions and don't want to deal with certain attitudes that ooze from the forums. They get on with playing music and who's to blame them.
Again, I agree, with a few reservations. It's not an either-or proposition, though it's certainly not symmetrical. But there are a couple of nuances in my comment I should try to clarify.Peter Laban wrote:I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.
Of course, I mean California as symbolic of the ITM diaspora, the one I'm most familiar with, not as a special case deserving special attention. In my direct and indirect experience, the situation here is fairly typical of the "session scene" in other parts of the US and beyond with active communities of ITM enthusiasts. Some of which have played a historically significant role in the evolution and preservation of ITM outside the core.
Looking to the musicians who "have the music" is definitely something that serious players here do every day. It's not a complete bubble. In some cases, we need look no further than the next chair at the session for the accomplished first-generation Irish musician who has grown up in the core, and brought their knowledge and technique and, yes, attitudes. They and their students are a constant reality check. Not to mention that many of us have made the trek to the core, and come away with the better understanding you refer to, at least to a degree.
I'm not suggesting a bizarre reverse exchange so that core musicians can learn California ITM, whatever that might be. But there are aspects of the way ITM occurs here that are quite different from, say, West Clare. And awareness on the part of more core musicians of those peculiarities might help them to see what they might regard as silliness in a different light, as sincere people simply trying to incorporate the music and instruments into their lives in a way that makes sense to them.
To cite one example: I know a number of whistle enthusiasts, both online and off, for whom the connection between ITM and whistling is not necessarily that strong. They may be church musicians, New Age musicians, Irish punk musicians, coffeehouse folk musicians, classical musicians, or just "hobbyists" who happen to enjoy playing an accessible folk instrument. For them, serious ITM may be the "background radiation" of their interest in whistling, but not the main focus.
Some may enjoy learning a handful of tunes and airs at any level of authenticity or not, for the satisfaction of feeling close to their Irish "roots". Some may be adult learners rediscovering a love of playing any kind music, that their lives never allowed them to pursue. Some may enjoy the challenge of mastering a tricky Generation. Some may love the airy whisper of a Clarke, or the loud voice of an Abell, simply because it sounds good to them in their kitchen or bathroom. Some may enjoy collecting expensive and inexpensive whistles of all makes, sizes and materials, and comparing notes about them, the way that people may enjoy collecting anything. The list of motivations is endless.
I guess it's arguable whether the opinions and perceptions that arise out of these very different experiences are either legitimate or silly when viewed from the standpoint of serious ITM. But they are definitely part of the reality of whistle playing in California and the States, and I think a major component of Chiff & Fipple. And seeing firsthand the way that these different interests and people interact here might help core musicians to see past what they might otherwise regard as misguided aberrations. That's mostly what I meant.
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips
Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
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Dale
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Some of my posts here have been slightly snarky (some of you might not agree about the "slightly" part) and so let me just say a bit with, I hope, no sarcasm.
I think there are three issues that come up frequently on these forums and they all appear in this thread. (1) Cheap vs. Expensive whistles, (2) Heavy vs. Light Moderation and (3) Whether the proper respect and deference is paid to the experts on the board.
1)I don't know what else to say about the first one. My position has always been that there's apparently a market for both cheap and expensive instruments. If it can be shown, finally, that expensive whistles shouldn't exist and are the result only of customers believing that they need something they really don't need, then it won't be the first example of consumers being sold something that they don't need. We're many years now into expansion of the market for handmade whistles and I think it's leveled off. I don't think people are being conned. Certainly there's something to the charge that some of us who are basically hacks get distracted by searching for "the right instrument" instead of settling on an instrument or two and actually practicing. I'm completely sympathetic to that position. But, a lot of people, including some very fine players, prefer some of the higher end instruments and I think there must be something operating there other than hacks looking for instruments that will make them sound like good players. It would be nice if we could just stipulate and move on. Not going to happen.
2) Heavy vs. light moderation. Some people complain when moderators don't protect people from being victimized or attacked. When moderators do intervene, people complain about censorship. It's really impossible to make everyone happy.
3) I've probably said enough about our inability to create a sort of utopian forum where everyone understands there place, knows who the experts are and who the hacks are and who the hacks-posing-as-experts are. People are free to complain about this and suggestions are welcome. One thing seems certain to me: Solutions to this would require heavy moderation. See 2).
Dale
I think there are three issues that come up frequently on these forums and they all appear in this thread. (1) Cheap vs. Expensive whistles, (2) Heavy vs. Light Moderation and (3) Whether the proper respect and deference is paid to the experts on the board.
1)I don't know what else to say about the first one. My position has always been that there's apparently a market for both cheap and expensive instruments. If it can be shown, finally, that expensive whistles shouldn't exist and are the result only of customers believing that they need something they really don't need, then it won't be the first example of consumers being sold something that they don't need. We're many years now into expansion of the market for handmade whistles and I think it's leveled off. I don't think people are being conned. Certainly there's something to the charge that some of us who are basically hacks get distracted by searching for "the right instrument" instead of settling on an instrument or two and actually practicing. I'm completely sympathetic to that position. But, a lot of people, including some very fine players, prefer some of the higher end instruments and I think there must be something operating there other than hacks looking for instruments that will make them sound like good players. It would be nice if we could just stipulate and move on. Not going to happen.
2) Heavy vs. light moderation. Some people complain when moderators don't protect people from being victimized or attacked. When moderators do intervene, people complain about censorship. It's really impossible to make everyone happy.
3) I've probably said enough about our inability to create a sort of utopian forum where everyone understands there place, knows who the experts are and who the hacks are and who the hacks-posing-as-experts are. People are free to complain about this and suggestions are welcome. One thing seems certain to me: Solutions to this would require heavy moderation. See 2).
Dale
Last edited by Dale on Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eskin
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I personally don't believe that given our collective track record that this can be solved without external intervention.
So, I'll sit on the sidelines and wait to hear what is decided. Someone please drop me an email when its all sorted out. I'm tired of having to worry about being attacked when I try to give any suggestions or represent my local experience as being of some value.
In the mean time, I'll keep posting videos on tradlessons.com. I appreciate the kind words and comments I've received as well as the generous support. If anyone will be in the San Diego area and is looking for sessions or tunes, please drop me a line.
Cheers,
Michael
So, I'll sit on the sidelines and wait to hear what is decided. Someone please drop me an email when its all sorted out. I'm tired of having to worry about being attacked when I try to give any suggestions or represent my local experience as being of some value.
In the mean time, I'll keep posting videos on tradlessons.com. I appreciate the kind words and comments I've received as well as the generous support. If anyone will be in the San Diego area and is looking for sessions or tunes, please drop me a line.
Cheers,
Michael
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FJohnSharp
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- Tell us something.: I used to be a regular then I took up the bassoon. Bassoons don't have a lot of chiff. Not really, I have always been a drummer, and my C&F years were when I was a little tired of the drums. Now I'm back playing drums. I mist the C&F years, though.
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riverman
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Dale, I want to thank you for all you've done with the Chiff site. Your most encouraging words on your Chiff website were these: "If you can make a sound, you're a musician. If you like the sounds you make, you're a good musician. If others like the sounds you make, you're a great musician."Dale wrote:Also, a comment. As much as I'd love to have all of the world's greatest Irish musicians posting on this board, if I was forced to choose between losing the finest and most experienced musicians and losing all of the beginner/intermediate learners, I'd lose the most experienced musicians, who need a forum like this less.
You have no idea how encouraging those words were to me as I was laboring through the "toot, pause, toot toot, pause, toot" phase of whistling. I'm glad we "great musicians" have a place to go to learn more about whistling. Thanks!
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away." --Jesus Christ.
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CranberryDog
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