A Whistle Challenge for Peter Laban

[pancelticpiper]

I do think it's hard to pose "challenges" on C&F without coming across as arrogant or worse -- part of my point. We all have our opinions and experiences, and a forum for expressing them. But I'm not sure that any of us has the prerogative to declare "put up or shut up" to prove a point with regard to matters of opinion and taste, however strongly felt.

On a Scottish pipe band forum, I asserted that any experienced pipe band competitor could tell the level of a band's playing merely by seeing the band- their kit and how they wore it. Several others jumped on me saying that this idea was ridiculous.
So, I posted photos of three bands which played at three levels, challenging people to guess which band played at which level.
The very first poster (who had never heard any of the bands) got all three right.
But, my post caused a storm of protest and it was deleted by the moderators almost immediately. How DARE somebody actually demonstrate that what they said was true!

[Guinness]

In fact the ITM ether extends well beyond the Emerald Isle and so I find it distasteful that anyone would subscribe to the notion that understanding “attitudes” is a one-way street. Does anyone still believe that ITM was born, raised, and continues to develop in isolation?

[emtor]

Does anyone still believe that ITM was born, raised, and continues to develop in isolation?

Good point, perhaps the birth, the raising and the development has gone back and forth between several places?
Regarding the birth of ITM . . . Paddy Moloney of the Chieftains once were on summer holidays here in Norway where he sat outside his caravan playing a tune on the pipes.
An old man came by, left the camping site and returned with his fiddle and played the same tune. Mr. Moloney asked the old man where he learned the tune. The old Norwegian fiddler replied that he had never been outside Norway, and that the tune was a traditional local tune handed down for generations.
Mr. Moloney found that very interesting, since it was also a traditional local tune belonging to the area around Dublin, Ireland . . . handed down for generations . . . .
According to what I hear it is possible to find several identical tunes both here in Norway and in Ireland, and one has to ask . . . where was the birthplace of those tunes?

Regarding the raising . . . haven't the Irish been playing British whistles,-the Generation whistle? -And British Flutes and german concertinas?

Regarding development . . . I've heard that the uilleann-pipes almost disappeared in Ireland during the great famine, came over to the USA and was developed into the concert-D sets which came back to Ireland.

Another aspect of common cultural heritage is language:
Old-english has so many similarities with Norwegian that people from here who don't speak english can easily understand it. The same with some of the Scottish dialects,-a Norwegian non-english speaker will understand most of it. Add to the equation that all maritime words in the Irish-Gaelic language are old-norse words.

To me it doesn't seem like anything is able to either become born or being developed in total isolation.

[Rob Sharer]

In fact the ITM ether extends well beyond the Emerald Isle and so I find it distasteful that anyone would subscribe to the notion that understanding “attitudes” is a one-way street. Does anyone still believe that ITM was born, raised, and continues to develop in isolation?

Still, don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Rob

[colomon]

According to what I hear it is possible to find several identical tunes both here in Norway and in Ireland, and one has to ask . . . where was the birthplace of those tunes?

The thing is, there was pretty wide circulation of some tunes in the 19th century. Here in 1880s Michigan, my (German-speaking) great-great-grandfather was playing some that would be considered old-school Irish today. I just listened to a Paddy Killoran 78rpm recording of one of those tunes, as a matter of fact. If my grandmother had just had the good sense to learn the tunes from her mother, I might well be saying they had been in my family for five generations.....

[Bloomfield]

I do think it's hard to pose "challenges" on C&F without coming across as arrogant or worse -- part of my point. We all have our opinions and experiences, and a forum for expressing them. But I'm not sure that any of us has the prerogative to declare "put up or shut up" to prove a point with regard to matters of opinion and taste, however strongly felt.

It would certainly be nice if the whistle forum attracted the active participation of more better-known recording artists, teachers, and respected players to offer a variety of views on issues large and small. Their absence, and of the dialogue and "authoritative" consensus they might foster, is one of the disappointments here.

...

I don't know if Peter has been to the States before. But a visit to southern California sometime as our guest, to experience first-hand the flavor of ITM in this context, might be interesting. I wonder if he might come away with a more tolerant perspective on the choices people make and the challenges they face elsewhere. I can't supply the air fare, but the margaritas are on me.

Has it occurred to you that you have a California notion of what comes across as "arrogant or worse"? The way this whole discussion reads to me, and it's a fundamental problem with the chiffboard, is that people lament the absence of more people who have the music but at the same time have no hesitation in enforcing their California sense of communicating online. The two are connected in my mind.

What you are saying, MTGuru, is that matters of opinion and taste regarding the music are not to be expressed on pain of being arrogant, matters of opinion and taste regarding posting style are perfectly fine and as long as wear the mantle of chiffboard civility you can have at it.

Nobody's going to miss my deep insights into the music, but there is the reason why I post as much in a year now as I used to post in a month.

[Denny]

Nobody's going to miss my deep insights into the music, but there is the reason why I post as much in a year now as I used to post in a month.

Aw, Bloo!
Some among us miss ya!

deep insights, eh?

[crookedtune]

So many of the squabbles that arise here are based on the different ways our various cultures employ language. It always pains me to see these miscommunications grow into grudges. And it's especially sad when it drives good contributors away.

[FJohnSharp]

What this place does for the beginning whistle player is gets him past the 'which whistle should I buy' and 'how do you guys play your rolls' phase. It feeds the initial fun of discovering a new hobby/instrument/pasttime. For the serious, one can learn enough to know that a) there is a ton more to learn, b) it's doubtful you can learn it here. The people who really only want to learn to play will find what they need to get started in that direction, thanks to the postings of the many talented and experienced people we've had here.

If we're going to push away the people whose knowledge can really help us because we don't like how they say what they say, then this place is as good as dead.

[Steamwalker]

Hugs all around.

[Guinness]

In fact the ITM ether extends well beyond the Emerald Isle and so I find it distasteful that anyone would subscribe to the notion that understanding “attitudes” is a one-way street. Does anyone still believe that ITM was born, raised, and continues to develop in isolation?

Still, don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Rob

It's not my grandmother that needs the lesson.

[Bloomfield]

For the serious, one can learn enough to know that a) there is a ton more to learn, b) it's doubtful you can learn it here. The people who really only want to learn to play will find what they need to get started in that direction, thanks to the postings of the many talented and experienced people we've had here.

I don't think I agree with b). I have learned so much through chiff & fipple. The way it works is that you read to get a sense of who has gotten already where you are trying to go. If you don't just talk about it but are actually working on your music, it won't be hard to tell what's what. Then you listen closely to what that poster says, even if you don't understand yet why that poster says what they say how they say it. All my teachers have had a habit of answering the question I should have asked rather than the question I did ask. Without the chiffboard I doubt I'd have gotten as deeply into it as I have. Thank you, Peter, and thank you Steve! (And many others, too.)

[jim stone]

J

I don't know if Peter has been to the States before. But a visit to southern California sometime as our guest, to experience first-hand the flavor of ITM in this context, might be interesting. I wonder if he might come away with a more tolerant perspective on the choices people make and the challenges they face elsewhere. I can't supply the air fare, but the margaritas are on me.

People in S. CA know NOTHING about whistles or ITM.
NOTHING!

Oh alright, it's cold here and I like Margaritas...

[Dale]

Would anyone like to argue that this chronic tension between the know-littles and the know-a-lots, and the apparent poisoning effect it has had on the board, could be solved by a different approach to moderation?

[Dale]

Also, a comment. As much as I'd love to have all of the world's greatest Irish musicians posting on this board, if I was forced to choose between losing the finest and most experienced musicians and losing all of the beginner/intermediate learners, I'd lose the most experienced musicians, who need a forum like this less.