Aluminum vs brass

[wvwhistler]

Anyone have an opinion on the sound of aluminum vs brass? (stupid question...of course you do! )

I'm considering a Burke low D EZ in aluminum but Mike told me (when I enquired) that he would be producing the low D in brass. Now I'm torn as to which I want. Wait for a while for brass or get the aluminum and enjoy it now.

[anniemcu]

I prefer Brass, but I'd be hard pressed to explain it. It seems to sound 'warmer' to me. I have brass, aluminum, delrin, diamonwood, copper and nickle ones, and they all have their own little qualities that make me love them. That said, half of my most favored ones to play are brass.

[CranberryDog]

I've had a brass Copeland low D and Overton and MK low Ds. The brass is warmer; the aluminium is brighter. Sometimes the difference is subtle. The MK is nearly as warm as the Copeland.

I find the difference more pronounced in high D's. For example, Burke high D's like the DAN versus the DBN. Micheal Burke describes the DAN as "... Bright and sweet ...".

[Feadoggie]

I'm considering a Burke low D EZ in aluminum but Mike told me (when I enquired) that he would be producing the low D in brass. Now I'm torn as to which I want. Wait for a while for brass or get the aluminum and enjoy it now.

The only honest answer I could give you on that question is - I dunno!

Since you are talking Burkes I wouldn't think any other maker's brass would serve as a good basis for comparison. I play both Burke brass and aluminum whistles in keys from high Eb to Bb but that's where the brass Burkes stopped last time I checked. I favor the tone of te brass. And since Mike has not made a Low D in brass up to this point, no one has any experience with that whistle. I have owned several aluminum Buirke low D's and one composite - all very good whistles. I am sure a brass Burke low D would be nice. You could be the first on your block to own one. This is brand spanking new territory. And you have just scooped the rest of C&F's Burke faithful with the news. Woohoo!

I just checked the Burke website, and yes, there are new brass models listed.

One thing to think about though, brass can be heavy. Low D whistles are pretty big. Wonder how much a Burke low D would weigh in brass versus the aluminum. The alumium is nice and light. The composite Burke is almost weightless.

[anniemcu]

Brass can be heavier, but not necessarily. The Howard Low D is made of brass, and it is quite light. The thickness of the material makes a lot of difference.

[Feadoggie]

Brass can be heavier, but not necessarily. The Howard Low D is made of brass, and it is quite light. The thickness of the material makes a lot of difference.

Annie, I have no argument with your logic, The weight of the Howard is quite managable. Material thickness will effect the weight. However, the design of the Howard is more straight forward than a Burke low D. The current Howard has a plastic mouthpiece on a simple tube. The original Howards had a brass head I think.

The Burke design incorporates many more metal pieces. I was assuming Mike would leave the design of the brass low D similar to the Viper and just vary the materials - just as he does in the high D, C, Bb, etc. whistles. The difference in weight between a Burke brass high D and an aluminum high D is very noticable. I don't have an accurate scale here or I would weigh a Burke high D in brass and one in aluminum and calculate the percentage difference. Then I could weigh the aluminum Viper low D and calculate a predicted weight for the brass low D. That was the mental exercise I was going through when I made my original point. It's all conjecture at this point anyway since we haven't seen or heard what Mike is planning. Best to go to the source, eh? Cheers.

Feadoggie

[anniemcu]

... It's all conjecture at this point anyway since we haven't seen or heard what Mike is planning. Best to go to the source, eh? Cheers.

Feadoggie

That it is. I will hopefully be able to try one come April's St. Louis Tionól http://www.tionol.org/. Mike is usually there, with wife and whistles. Great folks!!

BTW - I wasn't intending to argue with you, just to point out that brass isn't always going to be heavier.

[Guinness]

Anyone have an opinion on the sound of aluminum vs brass? (stupid question...of course you do! )

Well what kind of brass and what kind of aluminum (metallurgical composition) and how each were treated in the fabrication process?

[wvwhistler]

Well what kind of brass and what kind of aluminum (metallurgical composition) and how each were treated in the fabrication process?

It's really only intended as a generalization. Many have expressed opinion to the tones of certain metals, I really don't want to get into the semantics of material blends. I couldn't go there if I wanted to as I am not a metallurgist and can only say that this is silver, bronze, brass, copper, etc.

[brewerpaul]

I honestly can't see why there would be a difference, assuming the brass and aluminum whistles were machined to the exact same specifications. It's the air column inside the whistle that vibrates and produces the sound, not the walls of the whistle. Same pretty much applies to wooden whistles: I don't really see a huge difference between various woods, as long as they're reasonably hard. Some of the "softer" woods like maple don't always bore as smoothly as something like blackwood and that slightly rough bore seems to soften the tone of the whistle, but I don't think that the actual hardness of the wood is responsible.

[wvwhistler]

So Paul, you're saying that it's more the lay of the land than the dirt the lands made of!

[CranberryDog]

I honestly can't see why there would be a difference, assuming the brass and aluminum whistles were machined to the exact same specifications. It's the air column inside the whistle that vibrates and produces the sound, not the walls of the whistle. Same pretty much applies to wooden whistles: I don't really see a huge difference between various woods, as long as they're reasonably hard. Some of the "softer" woods like maple don't always bore as smoothly as something like blackwood and that slightly rough bore seems to soften the tone of the whistle, but I don't think that the actual hardness of the wood is responsible.

Come on Paul; we are getting close to the concrete flute argument. One could ask Mike Burke why he states on his web site that aluminium sounds brighter than brass and that brass sounds warmer than aluminium. One could compare his DAN and DBN or the DBSBT to the DASBT which I believe differ only in alloys.

Wall thickness can also effect the sound even if the air column is identical. Lots of variables. I believe one can also just trust one's ears and not try to force what we hear to conform to a theory or formula.

After all, if we believed the physics that are sometimes cited; all whistles would sound the same. Anyway, I'm not arguing really, it's just my insignificant view; and what is my view worth as I don't play Generations and prefer neo-whistles . Cheers, Cyril.

[Guinness]

The simple act of asking whether there is a tonal difference between Al and CuZn already makes several assumptions:

- There's only one grade or kind of each metal;
- Whistle makers who make CuZn or Al whistles basically all buy the same grades of each;
- Each commercially available metal is compositionally, mechanically, microstructurally homogeneous;
- Any mechanical or metallurgical processing of these metals do not have any impact on the tone;
- That any tonal differences between the materials can be audibly detected above the whistle's design and its fabrication methods (which we know affect tone);
- That any tonal differences between the materials can be audibly detected above the player's style, competence, and different playing environments.

There is no verifiable "proof" of any causal relationship between whistle material and a particular kind of tone.

[Guinness]

One could ask Mike Burke why he states on his web site that aluminium sounds brighter than brass and that brass sounds warmer than aluminium.

Precisely, yes, one should ask. I'd be interested in his response and while we're all waiting, I suggest some further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

edit: BTW, great whistles Mr. Burke. I have aluminum and brass versions in different keys. FWIW, I didn't consider the material when I bought them used though.

[CranberryDog]

One could ask Mike Burke why he states on his web site that aluminium sounds brighter than brass and that brass sounds warmer than aluminium.

Precisely, yes, one should ask. I'd be interested in his response and while we're all waiting, I suggest some further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

edit: BTW, great whistles Mr. Burke. I have aluminum and brass versions in different keys. FWIW, I didn't consider the material when I bought them used though.

Let's not get too linear in our thought process; okay? If you want to parse; please read accurately. I said: "One COULD ask Mike Burke"; not SHOULD as that would be appealing to authority.

One might ask one's self why would a maker use more than one material to make a whistle.

This is one of those subjects that has been beat to death. Cheers.