A Whistle Challenge for Peter Laban

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:22 pm

CranberryDog wrote:I mean, how many folks have a cow in the kitchen whilst they are recording?

He doesn't live in a barn?

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:33 pm

The first time I heard a whistle that I took any notice of was on Alan Stivell's "Renaisance of the Celtic Harp". 1976 I think it was.

It was a Gen red-top. I absolutely fell in love with it at the time. Not just the whistle, but the whole feel and aspiration that the artists had captured in their work. At the time there was not much to have in whistles - only Gens and Clarkes.

To me it expressed a musical ideal that has not changed since.

As it turns out, Alan Stivell and a bunch of other artists (Chieftains, Bothy Band, Furies, PLanxty etc etc) at that time were exploring a development of ITM and Celtic music.

At the same time, the major record companies were going through something of a renaisance of their own. The baby-boomer population bulge was financing a new heddonism in which musical identity was being deliberately used to exclude previous generations. Lots of money went into creating new musical mythologies.

End result of all this was a musical ethos that really didn't exist before then. As a byproduct, the Generation whistle attained a dignity that would not have happened if there were some decent instruments to be had at the time.

Gen got the badge - along with all its little squeeks and accidental harmonics that vary from note to note. Such are the mechanics of "charm".

I have no problem with that. In fact, mastering such a cranky little tube has the added benefit of increasing the player's sensitivity and control. I think every whistler should go the course with a Gen or similar.

There's another beneficial by-blow to cheap whistles. Because of the accidental uncontrolled harmonic structures, some notes allow a sensitive player to explore a range of timbres that would not be available on a technically perfected instrument (I'm thinking Boehm flutes, clarinets, etc etc). These little side-rooms of sound can be different from one whistle to the next. Such are the mechanics of "goat".

Now, we have many many more makes of whistle to choose from. The popularity of the instrument is rising, and there are many who are in search of a technically perfected whistle. To me that seems a little oxymoronic, but is valid none the less.

It seems to me that that the appreciation and requirement of whistles has moved-on - there are new side-branches and applications - and instrument makers happy to support them. This does not make any branch more valid than another. Where it's all going is anyone's guess.

One thing I know for sure is that the humble Generation (and it's ilk) will be with us for a long time to come - along with all their surprizing little side-rooms of sound (whether you want them or not).

Are they the only whistle worth having? For some, definitely yes. For others, emphatically not.

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:57 pm

eskin wrote: I'd never go to a session and say "Oh, you're playing a cheap Generation, look at me, I'm playing an XXX, aren't you impressed..."
.

Until relatively recently, I think the opposite sort of snobbery was in effect, as all the "real" whistle players played Generations (red top, brass, with ratty tape around the top, to be specific) and anyone who showed up with an American-made neo-whistle was automatically suspect. In nearly every case it was true: the person with the fancy whistle was a newbie with little technique and few tunes who probably had a Boehm flute or a (gasp) recorder lurking in their gig bag; someone merely dabbling in Irish music as part of their musical journey, perhaps sandwiched between their dalliance with Old-Timey and their conversion to Klezmer.
Obviously this has now changed with top Irish players switching to "designer" whistles, but remember that this trend is fairly recent, and some of us have been around Irish music a long time, and hold onto old ideas.

Boody · Post by **Boody** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm

Come on guys, cant we get along? I like Clarkes, some people don't. Thats why its great that there is a variety of makes and sounds to chose from, we can all get what we want. People like different whistles, do we have to fight?

Anyway, to get back to the original post, I liked 2 the most, didn't like 3, but besides that I couldn't really tell the difference.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:19 pm

*** - I like it very much
** - I like it
* - I kind of like it
~ - not what I want my whistle to sound like

As for which one is what whistle, I haven't a clue. I gave a guess, and I do stress *guess*, on #s 5 & 6.

Whistle-01 - bright, sweet ***
Whistle-02 - a little muddier, but with a bite **
Whistle-03 - muddy and not pleasant ~
Whistle-04 - nice *
Whistle-05 - nice ** Burke?
Whistle-06 - nice, bright with bite *** WW?
Whistle-07 - sweet, mellow, little bite in upper ***
Whistle-08 - sweet, mellow **
Whistle-09 - nice with a bit of bite **
Whistle-10 - very nice, bright, mellow, sweet ***

ketida · Post by **ketida** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:57 pm

CranberryDog wrote:
Tommy wrote:
chas wrote:Am I the only one who didn't take MT's "challenge" to Peter seriously?
There are two of us so far.
You can add me to the list. I thought the sound effects were rather blatant tips also; I liked the cow moo and the booooing. I was surprised how anyone could take it seriously. I mean, how many folks have a cow in the kitchen whilst they are recording?

I started out listening seriously but after the third or so clip, I realized I was more curious as to what the tag end would be, than what whistle it might be.

BigDavy · Post by **BigDavy** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:01 pm

Well to add the bodhran player's perspective

The whistles that gave me bodhran player's twitch were 3,6,7,8 and 10.

As to pure guesses as to what the whistles were

3- Clarke????
5- Susato
6- Mellow Dog
7- Water Weasel
8 - Overton????
10 - Burke

If any of the guesses are correct then no one will be more surprised than me.

David

Steamwalker · Post by **Steamwalker** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:10 pm

I listened to all the clips and the only conclusion that I could come to is that they all sound great in MTGuru's capable hands.

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:27 am

chas wrote:Am I the only one who didn't take MT's "challenge" to Peter seriously? Some of the remarks were so over-the-top that I thought it was certainly tongue-in-cheek, like maybe he felt like recording 10 clips and didn't want to post it as just another "here are a bunch of whistles." I think he's just having a little fun.

But then, almost all the time, given the choice between interpreting something positively and negatively, I'll choose the positive.

That's probably a safe assumption with MT.

Tom

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:38 am

I've been thinking about whether it might be possible to draft a Chiff & Fipple Consensus Statement on this cheap v. expensive issue. A consensus statement requires only broad agreement, not unanimous agreement. Once reached, we could sort of discourage endless argument about it. Some thoughts about it:

I don't think we'd ever reach a consensus that it's ALL about the skill of the player and that there's really no value for more expensive whistles.

Nor would we reach a consensus that the key to great sounding whistle playing is finding the right instrument.

We might well be able to reach a consensus that skilled players tend to be able to minimize any potential quality difference among whistles. That the qualities of various whistles is a matter of highly subjective tastes, else there'd only be one whistle maker on the planet.

Etc.

Should we try? I could try to develop a process for doing this.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:09 am

Dale wrote: We might well be able to reach a consensus that skilled players tend to be able to minimize any potential quality difference among whistles. That the qualities of various whistles is a matter of highly subjective tastes, else there'd only be one whistle maker on the planet.

Evidence is strong enough to convince me that you have accurately stated the overwhelming consensus. I doubt you can prevent the subject from coming up, but I'm not opposed to an attempt.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:16 am

Dale wrote:I've been thinking about whether it might be possible to draft a Chiff & Fipple Consensus Statement on this cheap v. expensive issue. A consensus statement requires only broad agreement, not unanimous agreement. Once reached, we could sort of discourage endless argument about it. Some thoughts about it:

I don't think we'd ever reach a consensus that it's ALL about the skill of the player and that there's really no value for more expensive whistles.

Nor would we reach a consensus that the key to great sounding whistle playing is finding the right instrument.

We might well be able to reach a consensus that skilled players tend to be able to minimize any potential quality difference among whistles. That the qualities of various whistles is a matter of highly subjective tastes, else there'd only be one whistle maker on the planet.

Etc.

Should we try? I could try to develop a process for doing this.

I used to post on a moderated martial arts message board. As you can imagine, there were lots of these exact kinds of debates on controversial issues (hard style vs soft style, which martial arts is the best, etc). They developed a similar kind of deal, and whenever arguments broke out, the moderators would lock the conversation and make the last post link to their big "faq"

free-feet · Post by **free-feet** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:09 am

I kinda like the debates.

At the end of the day if people don't want to read these threads then they don't have to click on them. And there's has been some nice playing and some good and interesting information come out of these debates.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:10 pm

free-feet wrote:I kinda like the debates.

At the end of the day if people don't want to read these threads then they don't have to click on them. And there's has been some nice playing and some good and interesting information come out of these debates.

I read most of them, and find it fascinating when several sides are correct. The difference only being opinions.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:17 pm

free-feet wrote:I kinda like the debates.

At the end of the day if people don't want to read these threads then they don't have to click on them. And there's has been some nice playing and some good and interesting information come out of these debates.

The point, I think, is that this debate is a never ending, frequently rekindled, and absolutely un-winnable one that could be quite adequately answered with a FAQ style, standing-info posting.

Discussion is great, examples are wonderful, new info is invaluable, but rehashing and thrashing the same circle of arguments gets nowhere. Just about everything you got out of this one has all been said, demonstrated, and done before, with exceptionally similar results. There are differences in whistles, differences in players, differences in ears, and differences in tastes. Hence, there will always be differences of opinion.

What most people really want is not 'the answer', but clear info with which to make up their own minds. Endless arguments may provide entertainment and even some good info, but rarely in the most helpful manner.

Understanding that even inexpensive instruments can sound great, and that expensive instruments don't necessarily sound better is very important. Getting others opinions on them is helpful. An update-able listing that presents all the known whistle brands, specific characteristics of materials, bores, tunability, etc., a graduated rating sytem, and sound samples for comparison, would go a long way to help folks make choices. If it can be made so that registered members can submit their own update-able survey choices, it could well be an excellent resource for players and makers alike. It seems like something that C&F really could do.