A bad Generation vs a good Generation

[Mitch]

I have a spreadsheet about Gens if anyone is interested.

I have no interest at all in spreadsheets, ...

Well you know Peter,

...

ramble ramble ramble

Blah blah blah

...

After a thought ot 2:

Of course you have no interest in spreadsheets - you're dedicated to playing Irish music. Could be the reason you play so well. Also why we like you so much.

[crookedtune]

A cheap one is fun to play with, but a good one gets the job done best.

But speaking of whistles cheap can be (as) good or as effective (as the next one) can't it? Isn't that the point that arises from the whole exercise of time and time again discussing this?

Yes, and yes. No one plans to discuss it again. It just seems to circle back. We each like what we like, no?

[Cayden]

It just seems to circle back. We each like what we like, no?

Yes we do, so tell me why there's this forum is routinely speaking in derogatory terms about 'cheapos' 'awful generations' and all that 'nod nod wink wink say no more' crap. You never hear me routinely insert 'overpriced' or 'bland' when Burke's (to pick one that comes to mind first) come up in conversation?

And 'liking' was not the subject of your remark, you spoke of better tools and in whistle terms I don't think most designer whistles stand up to the comparison of a Martin guitar when compared to some of the cheaper ones for ease of playing and resulting music. I don't particularly like any type of whistle over another, the ones that work, work. I am interested in the right tool, the one that enables me to play music. And there is the point I was making: I am not convinced the designer tool will do the job so much better I (or my playing to be more precise) will benefit from it. But I will keep trying whistles, maybe one day something will come along that will make me put the present ones aside.

[pancelticpiper]

What's a spreadsheet and what does it have to do with whistles?

About moveable toneholes, Boehm states that he made a flute with each tonehole on its own section of the tube so that the relative position could be changed about. He spent a lot of time testing various tonehole placements in the process of coming up with his flute.
The thing in Irish music that could benefit from something like that would be uilleann regulators.

When you get into Extreme Generation Whistle Chopping like I did, you'll start coming up with Generations in new keys. I chopped a B flat to make a B, and chopped a C to make a C sharp. I chop off the top until "B" "A" and "G" are in tune, then chop the bottom until the "D"s are in tune, then carve out the "E" and "F" holes to suit. Usually only those two toneholes have to be carved. These whistles play great.

Then I made an A body for a B flat head.

Here they are! Generations in A, B flat, B, C, C sharp, D, E flat, and F.

[Mitch]

What's a spreadsheet and what does it have to do with whistles?

Yah well, about a year and a half ago, I got 100 Gens and tested them all and graphed the results. The nicest one got raffled here for charity and the nastiest one got buried in concrete.

The Gen discussion is cyclical. My spreadsheet was supposed to give some pseudo reference point to prove that both ends of the arguement were correct. The results were 6% virtually unplayable and 6% rather nice with the other 78% acceptable players. A bell curve as you'd expect. The 6% flange on the bell is somewhat larger than I'd expected - good evidence for the very reason this discussion takes place.

As an honest attempt to be subjective, I also invited an experienced player to test the extreme examples - he was able to get a plausible performance out of even the worst of the bunch (although he wasn't happy with it). That part of the test was also to demonstrate that there's a whole world of difference between the nOOb and old-timer appreciation of the instrument and it's shortcomings.

I posted most of this stuff on C&F here:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#553411

I also posted it on my website in the "stories" section.

The post was never a slur on Generation whistles - quite the contrary.

Just looking now - no one in this thread has really nudge-nudged or wink-winked at them either.

As for off the shelf - that's a nice bunch of FrankenGens there pancelticpiper!

I see a lot of altered Gens in performances lately, I also see a lot of Overtons and Abells, but I did recently see a Queensland band "Aul Grey Whistle" with Megan Franklin blistering the air with a blue Sweetone (brilliant playing!). Not sure if it was tweaked or off-the-shelf, but it sure sounded good.

The thing is that there are more than just Generations to be had these days. Makers will make them and musicians will make of them what they will. Gens will be around until the last die explodes and the factory retools for yo-yos (say no more!).

[Cayden]

The thing is that there are more than just Generations to be had these days. Makers will make them and musicians will make of them what they will. Gens will be around until the last die explodes and the factory retools for yo-yos (say no more!).

Sure there wasn't a bit of say no more in there Mitch? Fact is, before you buy just about any whistle or indeed any instrument you will try it and pick the one you like. If you don't you're a fool.

Martin Guitars were mentioned and every guitarist playing Martins knows they are not all equal. You play a few and pick the one that suits. Whistles are no different despite noises being raised here saying it was highly unfair to pick the nicest ones from a batch.
You need to pick Oaks, Feadogs, tweaked ones and you name it just as much as any whistle. I remember posting a thread here years ago after trying half a dozen of alu jobbies (at 60 euro the pop) that were all much more screechy than the worst Generation I ever heard. When I bought a Dixon trad there was quite a bit of variation from one to the next and some were quite hissy on one or two notes. The one I got is just fine. I have seen and played terribly screechy tweaked whistles. And we all remember the moaning some six years ago of quite a number of Copeland buyers who were not all that happy with what they got (that seems to have gone away though but for a while that was a returning feature on the forums). And I have even seen a pretty much dead Sindt (countered by maybe a dozen very consistently good ones) .

Now, I don't say that to put any of the makers down, it just goes to show there's a variation within a make from one whistle to the next. And some turn out better than others. And you pick the one that suits you. Plain and simple.

edited to replace a 'croaky' by 'hissy'

[Cayden]

reply to a post by wanderer that was deleted while I was replying.

[Wanderer]

Now, I don't say that to put any of the makers down, it just goes to show there's a variation within a make from one whistle to the next. And some turn out better than others. And you pick the one that suits you. Plain and simple.

Yup, true there. Even amongst generations--some good, some bad.

I think that was the original point of the thread, right?

[blackhawk]

This ought to be good for 6 pages of flaming posts.

[cough, cough]

[emtor]

OK . . . 84% of the tested Gens were in the range "acceptable" to "good", now that's pretty nice for a mass-produced product that doesn't cost very much.
Should we expect a higher percentage of acceptable/good whistles from a maker that sells them for 200 $ or more ?
As mentioned earlier, I just purchased a Chieftain whistle for 115 £, and the C# is flat. So much in fact that it can't even be blown into tune whatever strength I'm using. Now,-that bugs me more than the 6% of "bad" Generations will ever do. What would have happened if I had paid even more for the Chieftain? Would I have refused to notice that notoriously flat C#???
-I guess so . . .

[sbfluter]

I have this DVD by Vinny somebody-or-other about how to learn to play the Irish whistle. At the beginning he spends a great deal of time discussing this old brass whistle that's all tarnished and has scotch tape over one of the holes to make it in tune and then he plays it and it's so beautiful, then he kind of glosses over all the other whistles in the pile, some of which no doubt are the expensive kind. In this very subtle way I believe he makes the point that it doesn't take an expensive whistle to make beautiful music. Coupled with that and the original comparison in this thread it really makes a lot of sense: Practice practice practice is the most important thing and the problem being the whistle itself isn't impossible, but it's not likely either.

[emtor]

sbfluter wrote:

Practice practice practice is the most important thing

I agree,-I only wish I could practice away that flat C# on my 115£ whistle.
As for the Generation whistles . . . even if the one you just bought sounded like the devil barking from the very depths of hell, I could just spend a few bucks and get another one. That's what I like the most about the cheapies.

[crookedtune]

But I will keep trying whistles, maybe one day something will come along that will make me put the present ones aside.

And that shows that you keep an open mind. You claim not to have a whistle preference, and that's probably true. But many of us do.

I agree that we should all keep our cheeky remarks about specific whistles to a minimum, but I haven't seen much cheekiness, or felt any of it to be mean-spiritied. I just see people sharing their impressions and opinions, and enjoying a hobby together.

[Mitch]

Sure there wasn't a bit of say no more in there Mitch? Fact is, before you buy just about any whistle or indeed any instrument you will try it and pick the one you like.
...

I sometimes get a bit perplexed at the Gen company. On the one hand, they've been a mainstay for such a long time, but they seem to not even notice our little community here. Enquiries about the future of the Gen are met with rumors and denials, Aloof seems a word I could apply. I think a little nudging and winking won't hurt them.

As for trying whistles - I've watched hundreds of times as players zero-in on THE whistle before they buy it - it's like a kiss, or love-at-first-sight - a very very individual thing. A whistle that's a dog in one player's hands leaps to life with another. Then again, I have a box of whistles that only get used for decore some cheap, some not. With mail order, ebay etc it is a hard thing to manage, but quality and quality expectations get lifted by this kind of forum. A good thing I think.

Emtor:

6% failure rate is not a stat that any of the businesses I've worked for would accept - specially outside the factory door. How would you like it if 1 in 12 of your burgers gave you salmonella?

Regarding the Chieftain - Did you talk to Phil about it?

For $200 I'd expect to have access to the vendor, the maker or both. There's not a single maker I know who is happy to have a bad example of their work floating about - would you?

This is what I mean by "quality expectations".

[Cayden]

I agree that we should all keep our cheeky remarks about specific whistles to a minimum, but I haven't seen much cheekiness, or felt any of it to be mean-spiritied. I just see people sharing their impressions and opinions, and enjoying a hobby together.

There was a whole rake of them just before the christmas, just your casual knee jerk ill considered stuff. None of the posters of those remarks tried to pick the the designer whistle from among the 'chalk on a blackboard' whistles I posted for the christmas entertainment. And I bet they wouldn't have managed either.


edited to correct the 'blackboard' quote