Lark In the Morning

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:47 pm

On 2002-11-20 16:37, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Wandering Whistler,
I really don't understand why you are so intent on coming to the conclusion that Lark in the Morning is a decent shop.

(Shrug) I don't understand why you're so intent on coming to the conclusion that they're not. You certainly haven't convinced me yet. I'm not trying to convince anything of anyone. I merely told my experiences, and then asked some questions.

Their "Shark in the Morning" reputation is very, very well known and has been expressed to me by almost every traditional musician I've ever heard discussing Lark.

Interesting. Everyone I've know personally that's shopped there has been satisfied with their purchases.

It may have occured to you at this point that your experience of good service from Lark is NOT the usual experience.

Why would this occur to me? I haven't heard any tales to the contrary about their service. This thread doesn't have any examples of bad service from Lark folks. Only the complaint I've seen is that not all the salespeople are knowledgeable, and that not all of the flutes are good qualty. I haven't heard any complaints about bad service. As an example of good service, however, I have mentioned that they've physically checked on instruments for me. When my wife bought my jade flute for our anniversary, they had someone there play every one of them they had on the phone to her to find one she liked. Sounds like good service to me.

Out of the entire lot, only two or three of the flutes were at all decent (most of the whistles were cheap Generations and Susatos, etc - and the expensive ones were crappy Chieftans),

Well, that explains some things. I don't expect much from Generatons or Susatos either. And you've already made your opinion about Phil Hardy clear in other threads. I'm gonna snip your whole Lark brand flute rant. The only solid complaint in the whole thing is that it was out of tune (though you did state so a bit roundabout). I'll take it on face value that the Lark brand flutes aren't very good. I'll also remind you of my position that when you buy the cheapest instrument in the store, and that instrument is 1/3 the cost of more quality instruments, you have to expect that it's not going to be as good. I'll also remind you that Lark does have a return and refund policy, and if you're so worked up in self-rightous anger that you have an apopleptic fit and die and thus don't return the thing because your cheap flute sounds--well--cheap, well, them's the breaks.

As for WalMart's cheap computers... yup, they sell cheap $200 computers. They also let potential buyers know quite clearly exactly what the specs of the system are so they can decide whether the low price is worth it.

They do?? I looked pretty closely, and I fail to see the mention of an FPU or lack thereof in any of their specs. I don't see any mention that some applications will work more slowly than other applications, some of these being multimedia apps. I also fail to see whether their PCI modem is a winmodm (which takes CPU cycles and requires drivers) or not. I fail to see the mention of how much power their power supplies are rated for (not enough to do any serious additions to the thing). I could go on, but there is a LOT of important information missing from this list, and their inclusion would make the system as a whole look less attractive. As it stands, it looks like just any other machine you might buy at Dell, only cheaper and without Windows.

I'm sincerely glad you didn't get ripped off (or at least think you didn't)

Yeah, I "think" I didn't, Chris. There's no need to try and take personal digs..I've been playing whistle a bit longer than you, and trust my ability to judge what I put in my mouth. You'll please note that I haven't made any such like comment about how "well, at least you *thought* the flute was crap". I'm willing to take you on your word on the matter.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that you are so adament about defending these guys.

Like I said before: I'm just telling my experience, and asking questions, and hoping for a dialog..you're the one foaming at the mouth trying to convince me that the Lark folks are "dishonest jerks". I haven't seen anything from anyone here yet to support such a bold statement..though several posts do mention that their overall flute quality is not good. This is good information. I'm not trying to convince anyone that this information is in dispute. If you go back and read my original message, I stated that what what was said in the Sindt thread did not match with my experiences. I haven't been in there to play every flute in the place... If you, Jessie, and Teri have spent time in the place, then that's the kind of info I was hoping to get at.

Anyways, it's clear that you've made your mind up to like Lark in the Morning, to like Chieftan whistles, etc.

Huh? What do chieftain whistles have to do with this discussion? Is that what this is about? If you're somehow feeling antagonistic toward me because I happen to like my Chieftain low D and don't think Phil Hardy is some kind of anti-christ, I'll be happy to build you a bookshelf to hold all of those issues you're carryin around.

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-11-20 17:52 ]

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:54 pm

:roll:

This is no longer worth my time.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-11-20 17:59 ]

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:01 pm

It's been my experience that nearly all sellers of merchandise play up a products strengths and play down a products weaknesses

But we should expect more from musical instrument sellers, especially in such a small community as that of traditional music.

I would never expect a Yugo to drive like a Dodge Viper...though folks who own Vipers may rightly denigrate the handling and performance of that Yugo, that doesn't mean that there isn't someone who'll be glad to have it.

No but telling somebody that the Yugo is a comparable high performance car to the Viper is sleazy, to use Chris' term.
Let's face it, many of us came to this music "fresh off the turnip truck." Lark in the Morning has capitalized on our ignorance and eagerness, big time.
Musical instruments are not just merchandise and their retailers are not just merchants. Instruments and the music we play on them have a very personal impact. When you get cheated it hurts deeper than your wallet. Just because you haven't been hurt doesn't make it OK.
Cheers,
Aaron

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:25 pm

On 2002-11-20 18:01, AaronMalcomb wrote:
But we should expect more from musical instrument sellers, especially in such a small community as that of traditional music.

Perhaps we should. But, with any large retail store (Lark, Mars Music, etc) I realize that they may have stuff that's crap, and try to use buyer's savvy to avoid it. I can understand why you'd want to expect more from a music store...I expect a bit more, too (I'll shop from Thom at the Whistle Shop before I shop at Lark). I'll do the same for computer parts; shopping at a small reputable dealer for parts than at places like Microcenter Compusa, or Fry's (many of these places have hate websites that have exactly the same kinds of complaints about lack of salesperson knowledge, etc). That said, I expect that there's gonna be crap in any big 'retail establishment' that only exists to sell 'stuff', no matter what niche that 'stuff' falls into.

For all of Chris's trying to paint me as a 'Lark apologist' or something, I'm not. I don't think anyone should get ripped off. It's only been recently that any messages about their GENERAL flute quality has come about. I never said he was wrong, or anything of that nature. I've mostly been asking questions, and stated seveal times that I was just looking to dialog for information. I also stated a few times that I was not doubting his story about that flute. It took a few posts back and forth before I learned that Chris had tried a bunch of flutes in the place. In that time, he's become increasingly more hostile, though I've tried to state (again, many times) that I was just trying to start a dialog because his statements didn't match my experience. It's why I asked questions like "have you tried more than one Lark flute?"...you can't judge an entire store on one bad flute.

If their general flute quality is poor for all of their flutes, I'd take Jessie's advice and wouldn't buy an irish flute mail order from them, either. But, I will stand by my prior statements: I've gotten good whistles from them in the past, and their customer service has been good when I've used them. I've gotten other neat stuff as well (such as a tibetan singing bowl) and all of the stuff I've gotten has been to my expectations.

I havent bought any irish flutes from them. I probably won't ever play the irish flute in my life...but if i had a hankering and what folks have said is true about their general flute quality (teri, jessie, chris) I probably woudln't buy one from them. Seems simple enough. But it probably won't stop me from making the occaisional purchase from them. And in the off chance that I happen to get something bad (knock on wood), you can rest assured I'll return it.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-11-20 18:30 ]

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:11 am

Fight over. Game, set and match to Greg. Chris was disqualified for foaming at the mouth and for gratuitous Phil Hardy bashing.

Caj · Post by **Caj** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:51 am

Hi,

I play the concertina mainly, and Lark's pricing is much more noticeable to me. When they mark up an instrument by 75%, they mark it up by a couple grand! It's easy to compare the prices in their catalogs to the prices elsewhere, and find discrepancies of thousands, as in more than one thousand, of dollars.

I've had only positive experiences from them in terms of service, support, etc. Their reputation, I believe, comes mainly from their sometimes unusual pricing.

Caj · Post by **Caj** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 4:08 am

Hi and I forgot to add,

Every time I visited the Lark SF store, they had a "Jeffries" on display---a very valuable and sought-after brand of concertina, an expensive antique.

Point for Lark: they let me test-drive it. Woo!
Point against Lark: it wasn't a Jeffries, but a modern replica. Boo! And the price was much higher than a sane person would pay for either.

It also had a bad reed (probably fixable, but boxes shouldn't leave the store in that condition.) All in all, I'd say the people were very nice, but had no idea what they were selling, and consistently erred on the side of overpricedness.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 4:40 am

On 2002-11-21 04:11, Jens_Hoppe wrote:
Chris was disqualified for foaming at the mouth and for gratuitous Phil Hardy bashing.

Yes, it does get old, doesn't it? I don't have any feelings one way or another about Phil Hardy, but I do get tired of the endless repitition. :roll:

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:16 am

Just to add to this chaos, I don't trust Lark, and here's the reason why. On their whistle page, they have a small section for the Howard Brass D whistle, and the comment is that "These are some of the best D whistle we have ever played!". Well, more than a year ago, Ive bought such a whistle, and it was one of the worse whistle Ive ever played... Howard was kind enough to reimburse me, and that shows that Howard is a maker than can be trusted. But since then, I don't trust anything that has to do with Lark. Maybe the whistle itself had a problem, but I really, really doubt it.

Paul Reid · Post by **Paul Reid** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:24 am

Quit being so petty everyone and let a guy make his living. Be wise and you stand a better chance of not being stung.

[ This Message was edited by: Paul Reid on 2002-11-21 09:30 ]

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 8:56 am

On 2002-11-20 01:44, Wombat wrote:
Celtic Southern Cross...

Here's a link. It's worth checking out, even if you never intend to do business. (And no, since you asked, I'm not on a percentage.)

http://www.celt.com.au/

OK, I'm getting slightly off topic here, but isn't that a pure black Clarke in the Victorian Singing Games box, better known as "Dale's Naked Black Splendour"? It says silver in the blurb, but it looks black to me. I've never seen one "in the flesh", I thought it was just a rumour.

The 2-piece whistle at $22 is a Clare, but they don't mention the name in the blurb.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:19 am

Paul,

If I didnt know better, I'd think your words are full of wisdom. I'm so sick of this "let a guy make his living". We are just stating personnal experiences with Lark, should we shut up just to let a guy make a living? Heard it all before, but it freaks me out everytime. I honnestly don't trust them, but I'm not saying that they are evil: that, I reserve for another shop.

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:58 am

My 2 cents: I don't see any reason why folks shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions on the Board- that is one of the reasons that the Board exists- to facilite the free exchange of ideas and experiences. In this case, some have had a bad experience and others a good. Both have expressed their views- that works for me. If I was considering buying from this particular vendor I could see the experience of others, both good and bad, and make my own decision- a decision that is now more informed because of the previous discussion.

Keep this sort of discussion happening, I say.

All the Best, Tom

ysgwd · Post by **ysgwd** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 10:44 am

I appreciate people here like Chris who risk being attacked for the way he expresses his feelings about his bad experiences. (No Chris, please don't feel this wasn't worth your time!! I used to think it was me--over a thousand dollars later I learn it was Shark in the Morning selling me crap I couldn't play because it was crap, ie flutes and stringed instruments.)

If a business happens to grow beyond its ability to be fair and deserving of a clientele, no one person is ever to blame entirely--that is what makes dealing with it so treacherous. In another thread, I quoted T. J. Tanning about how the percentage of profit can drive organizations further and further away from ethical practices. To me, Lark is just behaving according to its nature, like the proverbial scorpion that stung the turtle and drowned them both.

Some of us want so badly to believe that we are being treated fairly that we won't see when we aren't. That was me. I feel bitter about it now. I was more underhanded about it than Chris has been. He came right out with his feelings. I just instigated a thread about Larks mark up and stepped back to watch the fur fly. I was more sincere about the camp thread--really was just curious, and then glad that someone told it like it was. I needed help in kicking the Lark habit.

I got the Lark holiday supplement a few days ago, recalled Kim in Tulsa's sharing about not being able to put the thing down, saw the Sindt mark up, and did't just want to get even, I wanted to see some truth in print to match the lies in that catalog.

There it is.
Lisa

klezmusic · Post by **klezmusic** » Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:01 am

As a 20-year long employee of HMT (House of Musical Traditions), I certainly have no love for Lark in the Morning, but I understand what some others are saying. A while back, HMT was being dragged through the muck on the flute forum for not filling Olwell flute orders on time, and for selling inexpensive Pakistani cane flutes. One person reached the unfair conclusion that we were a bunch of ignorant incompetents who didn't care about customer service, and were deceptive to boot. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Our staff includes a flute builder and expert player of all kinds of wind and percussion instruments (Stream Ohrstrom), several people who are competent to test flutes, several decent whistle players, and a prizewinning whistler, teacher, and recording artist of many years experience. All this does not mean that when you call, you won't be answered by one of our weekend part-timers, temporary holiday help, or a recent hiree who hasn't learned the ropes yet. If you want the best service, you have to ask for a specialist in your particular area of interest; and if you insist on speaking with the untrained person that answered the phone, be prepared for the possibility of misinformation. Everybody here is anxious to please you and make a good impression, especially the new help, and it is understandable that sometimes erroneous information is given out. I've overheard our salesclerks, even experienced ones, telling customers that a particular book was out of print, or that we didn't carry a certain item, when I had several of them in stock.

Now, those of you who have purchased whistles and stuff from HMT know that we are very customer service intensive and very concerned that every customer have a good experience with us. However, people are human, and mistakes are made. For example, we made a couple of big mistakes several years in a row by hiring mail order personnel that was, frankly, less than competent, and made the further error of not providing sufficient supervision and support staff, in our desire to get rid of red ink on the cash flow sheet -- a small customer service oriented business in a small market such as ours is very labor intensive, and we are always tottering on the brink in lean times.

As a result, under the pressure of our peak shopping seasons, several of these employees became overly concerned with filling new incoming orders as quickly as possible and severely neglected customer communication on the difficult cases, particularly Olwell backorders. The backorder situation itself was clarified in a post to the flute forum made by my boss, Dave Eisner, and text was added to the web page so that anyone placing a new order would understand the situation from the git-go (see http://www.hmtrad.com/instr/winds/flutes/flutes.html )

As to the Pakistani flute complaint, which was patently unfair and ridiculous to boot, I immediately corrected that by adding tailor-made explanatory text to the web page (http://www.hmtrad.com/instr/winds/flute ... html#other ). If you go there you can let your imaginations fill in what the actual complaint was.

My main point is, the more employees you have, the greater tend to be the possibilities for customer service and communication trainwrecks.

I take my own little squeezebox department very seriously, and all the staff here has received Pavlovian conditioning so when they hear the word "accordion" on the phone, they immediately respond "You need to talk to Wendy". It's a reflex now, all the customer has to say is "I play accordi...." and the HMT person will call out "Wendy!" It's really funny to observe, unless you're me and you already have 3 Salvadorans who don't speak a word of English looking at the 3-rows, and 7 other people lined up, hopeful of selling me some smelly mildewed Accordion-Shaped Object they dragged out of grandma's basement.

My other point is, my boss is paying me a decent salary for me to spend time looking at the 7 mildewed A.S.O.'s that come in here every week, and explaining as gently as I can to their owners why we aren't interested in buying them, and why they shouldn't waste their money paying me to appraise the M.A.S.O. so they can sell it on eBay. So much of customer service has nothing whatsoever to do with sales income, and the more the balance tilts from money-making activities to those that do not lead to sales, the harder it is to pay the rent.

In my fantasies, I am the only person working at HMT, and I clone myself and then train my clones in different specialties so that I can leave the day-to-day business to them, make a fortune and retire to a sunny location somewhere in the Mediterranean.

Wendina
--

B sharp, C?

(edited to put a space in so a link would work properly)

[ This Message was edited by: klezmusic on 2002-11-21 12:18 ]

[ This Message was edited by: klezmusic on 2002-11-21 12:19 ]