what to do with the ego

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fearfaoin
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Re: what to do with the ego

Post by fearfaoin »

mahanpots wrote:a flute player from Raleigh I can't remember her name, though
If she was British, that was likely Alison Arnold. Her husband would've been
the cellist. She is also an NCSU professor, and plays in a band with Paul.
Man, I can't believe I missed that party. I'll have to go to the one on New
Years Day at Sarah, the HD player's house. Should be mostly the same folks
there.

As to the ego, I think the trick is to play a lot in very low-stress situations,
for example in a church setting (where it's not a performance but a
collaborative worship), or a small session among friends. Still, it's hard for
many people, you just have to muscle through it several times until the
repressing of the "ego" is automatic. For some people, getting on a stage
a few times actually helps, because they learn to loose themselves in the
music so much that they don't realize they should be scared anymore.

And trust me, if you're REALLY out of tune, Paul will tell you. It's happened
before, and it's nothing to be embarrassed about, you just tune up and
play on.

As for knowing session tunes, how often can you get up to Raleigh? We
have weekly session now that teaches a session tune for the first hour.
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Tell us something.: Whistle player, aspiring C#/D accordion and flute player, and aspiring tunesmith. Particularly interested in the music of South Sligo and Newfoundland. Inspired by the music of Peter Horan, Fred Finn, Rufus Guinchard, Emile Benoit, and Liz Carroll.

I've got some compositions up at http://www.harmonyware.com/tunes/SolsTunes.html
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Post by colomon »

eskin wrote:The way I figure it, either you know the tunes or you don't.
Yeah, and either you're in tune or you're not. And you know the rhythms or you don't. (And I mean the real rhythms, not "this is in 4/4 and this is in 6/8.") And you have lift or you don't. And your ornaments are appropriate or they're not. And your versions of the tunes are what everyone else plays or they are not. And your tune choices are hip or they are lame.

The problem with playing with really freaking good players is it is very hard to know if you are the striving up-and-coming player they're hoping will one day be worthy of playing with them, or the clueless loser they're hoping will one day wise up and quit. And odds are that some of the people there see you one way and some of the people there see you the other.

I didn't always have these issues. Used to be if I thought I knew the sequence of notes in a tune, I wouldn't hesitate to join in with anyone. It wasn't until I got good enough to realize how bad I'd been then that I started worrying....
Sol's Tunes (new tune 2/2020)
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fearfaoin
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Post by fearfaoin »

I wonder Michael, have you ever felt this way with your pottery, for example,
if you're showing it at a show and people are looking at your work, do you
wonder if they're judging you? If this is something you've been able to get
past (or never had problems with at all), maybe there's something there you
can apply to music? Maybe you can put mind at the wheel, which seems like
a meditative place, when you start feeling nervous at a session?

The trick is to focus so hard on the music that all else disappears, including
the ego.
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Post by jim stone »

In Buddhism ego is simply clinging to the mind and body.
It's dissolved by meditation.

The superego is soluble in alcohol.
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Post by eskin »

Fearfaoin,

I agree, I think the key is to shift your attention from yourself and your inner conversation to the music. Thank for the voice inside your head for its opinion, tell it "thank you for that, but I have to get back to playing this music."

Its also worthwhile to work through in your mind the absolute worst case scenario. So you play the tune completely wrong, and everyone stops suddenly and stares at you, fingers are pointed, they're all very disappointed in you.

Now, ask yourself, what's the worse that could happen? You could apologize, promise not to do that again. No physical harm will come to you. But why does it not feel that way?

Not being all that far from pre-homo sapiens, we are basically survival machines. Since we are increasingly less threatened by physical factors, our minds often equate threats to our ego and point of view with physical threats, with the same physical reactions like increased heart rate, adrenalin, fight-or-flight feelings.

Learn to recognize your internal machinery and you can then make conscious choices about when and where you will allow your minds survival mechanism to choose what you do compared to making a choice.

Next time you're in one of these stressful playing situation, watch yourself and your body reactions and you'll probably notice that the conversation in your head starts going absolutely crazy with chatter like "you better not do this, you'll make a fool of your self, remember what happened last time..."

Now at that point, you have an opportunity to ask yourself, "Am I that voice?" I learned a long time ago that I'm not that voice, I'm the one watching that voice, and the voice is there purely as a survival mechanism. Occasionally its right, but sometimes it holds me back from what I really want to accomplish. Its at those moments when I can hear the voice, tell it "thank you, but I'm going to do <fill in the blank>" where there is real opportunity to have great breakthroughs in life.

Cheers,

Michael
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fearfaoin
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Post by fearfaoin »

eskin wrote:Not being all that far from pre-homo sapiens, we are basically survival machines. Since we are increasingly less threatened by physical factors, our minds often equate threats to our ego and point of view with physical threats, with the same physical reactions like increased heart rate, adrenalin, fight-or-flight feelings.
(emphasis mine)

VERY interesting point. This explains a lot of things that go on in the Rubber Room...
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Re: what to do with the ego

Post by crookedtune »

fearfaoin wrote: As for knowing session tunes, how often can you get up to Raleigh? We
have weekly session now that teaches a session tune for the first hour.
Sure do, and I'm the only whistler/fluter there most times! C'mon back, Nathan, and give me someone to hide behind! :lol:
Charlie Gravel

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
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ego

Post by mahanpots »

Thanks everyone for the responses, and thanks, Rob, for the introduction

:oops:

fearfaoin, I'll try to make it to Raleigh sometime soon, and maybe I'll see you at Sarah's party. I don't know if I have the time to dedicate going regularly. I've gone to Greensboro sessions regularly in the past.

Thinking about some of the things said, I think:

a) My personality makes me a very sensitive person.
b) I haven't spent the time it takes to learn enough session tunes to be able to play a lot during a session.
c) I give myself a hard time.

Michael
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Post by Berti66 »

when reading this topic on ego I came to the following conclusions:

it is surprising how many people mention buddhist meditation to control the ego and how this works (I myself am no exception).
it is true that what the ego is trying to tell you, not neccessarily is the thing you need to know but just should watch and then decide yourself what you do with it.
but that is the hardest thing to learn ;)

mahanpots, there is nothing wrong with giving yourself a hard time, as long as you don't suffer because of it.
keep everything fun and keep kicking your ass, is all you need.
finally the ego will keep shut and listen.

we all are just using a musical way to learn to control our egos :)

and you really don't need to know a lot of session tunes to play in a session.
see it as a learning place, and maybe you can record the tunes played there and practice at home.
they rather see you come with just a handfull of tunes played with good rhythm and from there, improve.
it is not about being perfect.

nobody is perfect. perfection doesn't exist. it is what we strive for.

happy playing
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Post by Cork »

Berti66 wrote:...it is surprising how many people mention buddhist meditation to control the ego...
Buddha doesn't play flute, but "I" do.

It's not that "I" begin my day by congratulating myself for being a flute player, but, honestly, there are those days when "I" really don't feel like practicing, and it's on those occasions that my ego reminds me that "I" have an obligation to practice, and so "I" do.
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Post by JeffS »

I can relate to your feeling here. There are several different levels one could address you. The one about God I agree with. This is the most important. Play the music from the sternum, not the brain. Feel it, it's what resonates with the Holy One.

On another level, I see you're nervous. You're "self-conscious." This is a good thing, especially when contrasted with those that have the opposite problem: they have NO CLUE about the tunes.

Fretting about the details (ie: "am I in tune? . . .does my neighbor hate me?) are to be expected for new sessionaire. Play a set by tapping with your foot for the time. Don't put too much on the tunes. Play only those that you know. The rest will come.
"Where I came from, to get enough to eat was an achievement. To get enough to get drunk was a victory" (Brendan Behan)
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ego

Post by mahanpots »

Fearfaoin wrote:
I wonder Michael, have you ever felt this way with your pottery, for example,
if you're showing it at a show and people are looking at your work, do you
wonder if they're judging you?
Only other potters. With music, other musicians. I started playing flute in my 30s. Before that, I had no musical training or exposure to playing music really. When I first got paid for a gig, I'm thinking to myself, "this is crazy. I don't deserve to get paid for this. Everyone else does, but not me."

I remember the first time I played at an open mic somewhere in Floyd, Va. with a bodhran player. We were the last to play, and as soon as we started playing, everyone got quiet; someone came in from the kitchen to listen. It was magical, and it was so easy.

Now compare that to sitting down in a room full of musicians, well, it's not so easy. Especially for me (or so I tell myself).

I'll have to say, that my first experience with a session in Ireland was fantastic. I have a friend who lived in the states and moved back to Ireland, and he set up a session at a beautiful old pub in Roscommon; It helped knowing someone to begin with, but the musicians were very friendly. I played several tunes we all knew and one that nobody but me knew. The flute player gave me his phone number and told me to call him some time. We saw the fiddler later in the week at a concert in Ennis. On the way home, my friend (piper Greg O'Donnell) told me, "I didn't want to say anything before we started playing, but that was one of Ireland's better known flute players."

The flute player was Patsy Hanly, and the fiddler was John Carty.

Now, if I had known who these musicians were at the time I was playing with them, my ego would really have had a field day with me; but, as it was, they shared their musical talents with me as graciously as I've ever experienced. And they left their egos at home.

Michael
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Post by Aanvil »

Well I'll tell you.

I flubbed some tunes last night right from the start... hell, I started them too!

Thing is. I know these particular tunes in side and out.

I was a bit nervous as a VERY good flute player (my first time meeting him) had just played out my flute and I had his to then try.

I swear my mind = white noise.

I hate that when it happens. And it happens every time. I'm pretty new to session playing.

The thing for me is that its happening less and less... especially after a pint in me to calm me down.

Oh, and for the record:

Mean Ol'Mr. Eskin did not take me outside for a talkin' to... nor hit me or' the head with the tip bucket.

So guess I get to stay.


:P :lol:

Good times though. :)
Aanvil

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I am not an expert
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Post by sbfluter »

I'm bad enough that I have reason to worry about my ego. I mean, I'm justified in feeling nervous. Eskin would surely take me out and rap me with the tip bucket. (I'm glad my session tolerates me.)

I have the most fun taking a whistle along with me and playing for civilians. They universally love Irish music and have no idea how badly I'm ruining it. Gives me hope.
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Flutes: Tipple D and E flutes and a Casey Burns Boxwood Rudall D flute
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Post by daiv »

always pay attention to what you are doing and how you are doing it. this means every second. if you are having trouble with paying attention, then you should be paying attention to that. if you are freaking out while playing music, then that is obviously what you should be paying attention to, because that is what you are doing; if more of your energy is in being nervous than playing music, then that is where most of your attention should be (this seems counter intuitive, but once your problem is alleviated, you will see that as you play music, and you have a hint of nervousness, it is illogical to place your attention on the nervousness, as your energy is all focused on playing). it is important that you not forget to pay attention to HOW you are doing, not just what you are doing, because without how, you will end up onlyexperiencing what you're doing (sensory processing), rather than paying attention (which is procedural).

there is a difference between not ignoring what you are doing and paying attention. paying attention is only one thing... it is active, it is not passive, whereas there are dozens of passive things that you can confuse with paying attention and are not.

attention is constantly moving, attention is SEARCHING. when you play, your mind should be in constant motion. rather than trying to NOT think, or trying to NOT panic, you should try to pay attention to what you are doing. eventually, all the distractions will fade away. if you spend your time on distractions, you will just get more distractions. this means that instead of putting your energy into panicking, you should put your attention ON panicking. dont stop the energy from flowing into panicking or being nervous, because it's already there... your nervous system controls the use of energy, and fighting that simple truth will only illicit more of the sympathetic (fight or flight) response.

you should notice your fingers and your hands and your breathing and the notes and the feel of the flute against your face and the pitch of the notes and the tension in your back and the resonance in your mouth and the position of the tips of your fingers and the bar you are in the tune. paying attention to your playing is like a sentence that never ends and goes back on itself. the subjections of the sentence are quick and fleeting: fingers, mouth, paying attention, fingers, mouth, nervousness, back, fingers, feet, nervousness, paying attention,mouth, fingers, tuning, back, ouch ouch ouch, back mouth fingers i-stopped-paying-attention-to-where-i-am-in-the-tune, nervousness, fingers, bar in the tune, back on track, a worry of whether or not paying attention is working.

you need to trust your mind and trust your self that if you just pay attention stuff will start to make sense. you've been forcing your body and mind to do things that it cannot do and it's been resisting. if you give up control, you'll find how much more control you have. it is the strict, worrying parents who get rebellious children. if you love and trust your children, while putting down guidelines and expectations, you are more likely to get respectful children. your nervous system is obviously freaking out against your will, so it is obviously doing what it wants, so why fight it? why continue to force it? if you trust it and pay attention to it, you will slip out of sympathetic panic response and go into parasympathetic relaxation. by definition, attention is relaxation, whereas panic is tunnel-vision-focus. the very act of paying attention will do more to end nervousness than anything else, because you simply cannot be nervous while paying full attention, and minimally partial attention is also partial panic, whereas no attention is full-on panic.

your body will obviously resist paying attention when you are nervous, as it is the opposite autonomic response. rather than giving up and just freaking out, pay attention to the nervousness and the jitters, because the act of paying attention in itself will alleviate the nervousness. if you do not trust that your body will calm itself down because of attention, then you will not allow yourself to pay attention and you will stay nervous longer than necessary--you cannot determine what is and what is not a threat if you are not spending any energy on determining. determining is a natural by-product of attention.

nervousness is good, its great. it's a natural thing. so pay attention to it. if you pay attention to your nervousness and wait it out, then your mind will process the threat, and then decide it is not imminent, and your body will calm down. sorry to say, if it is imminent, then you will continue to be nervous (like when you should ACTUALLY not be playing cuz its ticking some meanie off). if you dont pay attention, your mind will never process the threat, and you will grow nervous about being nervous, and pretty soon you will forget the original problem. even then, it is not too late to pay attention, because nervousness is not an incurable disease, it is a NERVOUS system response. if you never change how you think about it, then your body will never naturally change its response--it is impossible to change a behavior without paying attention to what you are doing and how you are doing it, and luckily for you, that is the very behavior you want to change! it actually fixes itself, unlike working on your musicality or learning a foreign language, which requires the attention plus the effort to work on whatever your working on.
eskin wrote:The way I figure it, either you know the tunes or you don't. Ego doesn't have to enter into it.

In the sessions I host we have a very simple rule: Play the tunes you know, don't play the tunes you don't know. That doesn't mean that if you don't know every tune absolutely note perfect don't play, it means if you're so unclear on the tune that your playing will distract others, lay out for this tune and wait for the next one. Seems like pretty basic courtesy to me.

If you come to the session and try to fake your way through a bunch of tunes, particularly on a loud instrument like a tenor banjo and then treat the other members like you're gods gift to trad, I take you outside, get in your face about your rude behavior and lack of courtesy to the other players, and you never come back.
both my grandma and her cousin fake their way through most of what they play, as well as doing their fare share of sitting out on tunes. you would never know they were faking any of the tunes, because they never fake a tune they cannot fake every note of. they have played their whole lives and learned from people who were doing just about the same. they learned by sitting in on sessions and quietly playing the wrong notes on their fiddles to themselves so only they could hear. they most certainly did not, and never have, played only the tunes they knew.

i myself have been taught to learn this way, with recordings and in sessions. i always remain respectful, which is i think the key word. if it is not appropriate in any given situation or tune, then i drop out and listen.
eskin wrote: Not being all that far from pre-homo sapiens, we are basically survival machines. Since we are increasingly less threatened by physical factors, our minds often equate threats to our ego and point of view with physical threats, with the same physical reactions like increased heart rate, adrenalin, fight-or-flight feelings.

Learn to recognize your internal machinery and you can then make conscious choices about when and where you will allow your minds survival mechanism to choose what you do compared to making a choice.
even if you leave the sympathetic response (fight or flight), you're still not automatically going to get to that state you're alluding to where you can say "thanks but no thanks" to distraction. you're going to leave the panic response behind, but the same problem will still be there--albeit massively alleviated--which is thinking about music the wrong way. i dont like to get too caught up in terms, but it sounds like the worriers are thinking about music episodically (meaning with words, stories, "do this," "do that," "o my god what if this happens") rather than procedurally (kinesthetic/muscle memory, etc).

if you try to talk your way through music, you will always run into trouble. the only way to get better at music, any aspect of it, is to simply work on it. but talking in your head is the same as not paying attention to your music, which is nearly equal to not playing or practicing at all. it's like trying to have a conversation while watching a movie... you're not going to get very much out of it. it's strange to think that we understand that in watching a movie, most of your time is spent watching, and very little in thinking or talking, but that in doing other activities such as music, we spend most of our time thinking/talking in our heads.

this also means that when you play your flute, you shouldnt think about what you are supposed to do as "first i use these muscles in my face, then i use those in my abdomen, then i play these notes, etc". playing music is not a retelling of the last time you played music. every day is fresh and different. as you have no doubt gone to sleep at least once since when you played yesterday, your mind will have learned several new things from playing. that means you will have a whole new set of experiences to draw on to play music today, and you will not need to tackle the same set of experiences as you did the day before. this also means that the same things that were exciting yesterday, may not be exciting today. the thrill of discovering a new way to get your flute more in tune will be replaced with the want to achieve it again, which is not how you achieved it the day before. the trap lies in trying to recreate musical experiences rather than using them to constantly build a new foundation.
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