Need advice from Olwell owners

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jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Liney Bear wrote:Jim -

Do you think you could tell the difference if Matt M played a tune on a Nicholson Olwell, and the same tune on a Pratten Olwell? I would kill to have that degree of discernment.

Gordon
I doubt that I do. I haven't played or heard the Nicholson much.
A fellow at a local session has one. But it seems a wonderful
flute, from the little I've been able to play it.
The owner can't play it. I actually want to steal it.
Seriously.
Cork
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Post by Cork »

jim stone wrote:...Stand by what I,
Cocus, Pat Olwell, David Levine, Dave Copley and many others
have said. I don't think any of us have a 'tin ear'
or have 'talked ourselves into hearing what we want.'
We all agree that the player makes the
principal contribution to the sound, but it's obvious
that bore size, hole size, differences in construction, etc.
can make a difference to the flute's sound, one significant
enough to be worth taking into account in choosing
a flute. That's one of the chief reasons makers
make and sell different model flutes. It's
silly to deny it.
Basically, I'm going to stand with Loren, in that, for the most part, a good player can tame a flute to their will, provided that we are speaking of better flutes.
Cork
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Post by Cork »

jim stone wrote:...The owner can't play it. I actually want to steal it.
Seriously.
I doubt that you would reduce yourself to stealing it, frankly, but if you made a lowball offer to him, well, he might not know what he has.

Good hunting!
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crookedtune
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Post by crookedtune »

Cork wrote:... for the most part, a good player can tame a flute to their will, provided that we are speaking of better flutes.


That about sums it up for me. The hierarchy of factors I see would be:

1- The skill of the player
2- The overall quality of the instrument
3- The appropriateness of the instrument for the player, (size, weight, hole-placement, aesthetic appeal, subjective "feel")
4- The details of construction, (material, bore, embouchure, undercutting....).

So, for example, you wouldn't want to obsess over blackwood versus boxwood in a similarly-styled flute, unless it's for cosmetic reasons. The difference in sound would be negligible.

Each listed factor might be several-fold more important than the one below it. Which is to say, buy a good quality flute that looks and feels right to you, and then work your tail off. (And have fun doing it!).
Charlie Gravel

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Cork wrote:
jim stone wrote:...The owner can't play it. I actually want to steal it.
Seriously.
I doubt that you would reduce yourself to stealing it, frankly, but if you made a lowball offer to him, well, he might not know what he has.

Good hunting!
I have made an offer, he knows what he has.
I share your doubts about my stealing it.
On the other hand he can't play it. I can.
I'm bigger and stronger than he is.
If I can't beat him up, my wife can.
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Cork wrote:
jim stone wrote:...Stand by what I,
Cocus, Pat Olwell, David Levine, Dave Copley and many others
have said. I don't think any of us have a 'tin ear'
or have 'talked ourselves into hearing what we want.'
We all agree that the player makes the
principal contribution to the sound, but it's obvious
that bore size, hole size, differences in construction, etc.
can make a difference to the flute's sound, one significant
enough to be worth taking into account in choosing
a flute. That's one of the chief reasons makers
make and sell different model flutes. It's
silly to deny it.
Basically, I'm going to stand with Loren, in that, for the most part, a good player can tame a flute to their will, provided that we are speaking of better flutes.
A few years ago I had an Olwell all-wood boxwood Nicholson,
lovely flute. Also had an Olwell pratten with a lined head.
I was playing with a hammered dulcimer group, four dulcimers
and me.

The all-wood flute sounded good but I found it didn't 'cut through'
the dulcimers. It got swallowed up in the sound.
The lined Pratten projected a good deal better. People on the
board, e.g. R03B, were saying the lined Olwells 'cut through'
better in noisy situations. I called Patrick Olwell and asked
him about it. He said the same thing--he added that he
uses the unlined flutes 'in the studio,' the lined flutes 'in
sessions.'

It matters what we want to do with the flute. If one is wanting
to be heard in noisy sessions, the lined Olwells are better
suited to do that, according to the maker. If we're going
to play at home or 'in the studio' or the parlor, it may not
much matter.

Suppose somebody says to us: 'I love the loud, open honking sound
I hear on some Irish flutes. That's what I want. Also where
I live there are some big noisy sessions and I want to be heard.
Now I have choice. I can buy an all-wood boxwood Olwell
Rudall or one of his lined Prattens. Which would be better for me?'

Obviously Patrick would advise the lined Pratten. Alternatively we could say the following: 'Doesn't matter which you buy. They're both
good flutes. Any flute will have the right sound after you develop
your sound.' I take it to be plain which advice is better.

Also Patrick is a good flutist. Apparently he has some difficulty
'taming these flutes to his will.' He takes the lined, not the unlined
flutes to sessions. The lined ones better serve his needs
in that venue, he says. So I'm not convinced a good flutist can tame
a flute to his/ her will, though maybe it's true.

Of course we can say that somebody who can't tame any good flute
to his will isn't a 'good' flutist, but then the claim that
a good flutist can do that becomes a tautology.

If there are such flutists, it's unlikely that most of us will attain
that stature. Before one becomes one of the greats, it seems
reasonable to buy a flute that will suit one's purposes. The fact
is that there may be good flutes that don't do that.

Finally and more controversially, I think the tonal differences between
good flutes are beautiful. Flutes aren't some sort of raw material
we are to bend ultimately into some homogeneous sound,
taming them to our will. The tonal differences are there
for a reason, different flutes can have different strengths
and be expressive in different ways. It seems to me
one of the marks of the best players is that they will
be able to exploit those tonal differences, not obliterate
them. Michael Flately is doing that, IMO, shifting tween
Rudalls and Prattens, depending on the music.

Emphatically the player makes the most difference to
the instrument's sound, and our first responsibility
is to improve as musicians. But it isn't a choice tween
hanging in there with the Olwell all-wood rudall while
one waits fifteen years until one can make it heard
in the noisy session, on the one hand, and flitting from
flute to flute instead of practicing. That's a false dichotomy.
One can sensibly count the tonal differences between
lined Olwell Prattens and all-wood Olwell Rudalls
and practice, practice, practice too.
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Rob Sharer
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Post by Rob Sharer »

The loudest damn flute player I've ever been in a room with is Michael Hynes, who always and only plays an unlined headjoint. I don't know if his flute cuts through the dulcimers or not, since he uses his laser vision to torch them from across the room before the first note. Cheers,

Rob
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Whistlin'Dixie
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Post by Whistlin'Dixie »

Ahhhhhhhhh, finally a thread comes along reminiscent of the olden days around here.... I shall brew a cup of coffee and enjoy myself again, finally.

Nice to see you again, Loren, and what's that, an avatar straight from your "Match.com" page?

I like it.

Now, when rama and cocus get tired of arguing with themselves, let's go on and see if we can tell the diff in sound between flutes that break down into more or fewer pieces....

and where's GaryKelly?
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mahanpots
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Post by mahanpots »

Is there a technique for playing louder by pulling your tuning slide out and blowing a stream of air in a more downward direction or something like that?

Not that I want to play any louder, but I think I remember someone telling me that.

Michael
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Loren
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Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free
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Post by Loren »

Whistlin'Dixie wrote: Nice to see you again, Loren, and what's that, an avatar straight from your "Match.com" page?

What?? Isn't this Match.com?!? :oops:


I'd better look for a more suitable picture......


Loren
Cork
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Post by Cork »

jim stone wrote:
Cork wrote:
jim stone wrote:...The owner can't play it. I actually want to steal it.
Seriously.
I doubt that you would reduce yourself to stealing it, frankly, but if you made a lowball offer to him, well, he might not know what he has.

Good hunting!
I have made an offer, he knows what he has.
I share your doubts about my stealing it.
On the other hand he can't play it. I can.
I'm bigger and stronger than he is.
If I can't beat him up, my wife can.
Consider the potential of reverse psychology. That is, if he has reason to think that you want his flute, but all the while you appear as completely uninterested, then you might just get that flute, hint, hint. ;-)
Cork
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Post by Cork »

jim stone wrote:
Cork wrote:
jim stone wrote:...Stand by what I,
Cocus, Pat Olwell, David Levine, Dave Copley and many others
have said. I don't think any of us have a 'tin ear'
or have 'talked ourselves into hearing what we want.'
We all agree that the player makes the
principal contribution to the sound, but it's obvious
that bore size, hole size, differences in construction, etc.
can make a difference to the flute's sound, one significant
enough to be worth taking into account in choosing
a flute. That's one of the chief reasons makers
make and sell different model flutes. It's
silly to deny it.
Basically, I'm going to stand with Loren, in that, for the most part, a good player can tame a flute to their will, provided that we are speaking of better flutes.
A few years ago I had an Olwell all-wood boxwood Nicholson,
lovely flute. Also had an Olwell pratten with a lined head.
I was playing with a hammered dulcimer group, four dulcimers
and me.

The all-wood flute sounded good but I found it didn't 'cut through'
the dulcimers. It got swallowed up in the sound.
The lined Pratten projected a good deal better. People on the
board, e.g. R03B, were saying the lined Olwells 'cut through'
better in noisy situations. I called Patrick Olwell and asked
him about it. He said the same thing--he added that he
uses the unlined flutes 'in the studio,' the lined flutes 'in
sessions.'

It matters what we want to do with the flute. If one is wanting
to be heard in noisy sessions, the lined Olwells are better
suited to do that, according to the maker. If we're going
to play at home or 'in the studio' or the parlor, it may not
much matter.

Suppose somebody says to us: 'I love the loud, open honking sound
I hear on some Irish flutes. That's what I want. Also where
I live there are some big noisy sessions and I want to be heard.
Now I have choice. I can buy an all-wood boxwood Olwell
Rudall or one of his lined Prattens. Which would be better for me?'

Obviously Patrick would advise the lined Pratten. Alternatively we could say the following: 'Doesn't matter which you buy. They're both
good flutes. Any flute will have the right sound after you develop
your sound.' I take it to be plain which advice is better.

Also Patrick is a good flutist. Apparently he has some difficulty
'taming these flutes to his will.' He takes the lined, not the unlined
flutes to sessions. The lined ones better serve his needs
in that venue, he says. So I'm not convinced a good flutist can tame
a flute to his/ her will, though maybe it's true.

Of course we can say that somebody who can't tame any good flute
to his will isn't a 'good' flutist, but then the claim that
a good flutist can do that becomes a tautology.

If there are such flutists, it's unlikely that most of us will attain
that stature. Before one becomes one of the greats, it seems
reasonable to buy a flute that will suit one's purposes. The fact
is that there may be good flutes that don't do that.

Finally and more controversially, I think the tonal differences between
good flutes are beautiful. Flutes aren't some sort of raw material
we are to bend ultimately into some homogeneous sound,
taming them to our will. The tonal differences are there
for a reason, different flutes can have different strengths
and be expressive in different ways. It seems to me
one of the marks of the best players is that they will
be able to exploit those tonal differences, not obliterate
them. Michael Flately is doing that, IMO, shifting tween
Rudalls and Prattens, depending on the music.

Emphatically the player makes the most difference to
the instrument's sound, and our first responsibility
is to improve as musicians. But it isn't a choice tween
hanging in there with the Olwell all-wood rudall while
one waits fifteen years until one can make it heard
in the noisy session, on the one hand, and flitting from
flute to flute instead of practicing. That's a false dichotomy.
One can sensibly count the tonal differences between
lined Olwell Prattens and all-wood Olwell Rudalls
and practice, practice, practice too.
Whew! That was quite a post, but let me offer a simplified response, please, in that there is loudness, which gets to the front rows of an audience, but then there is projection, which gets to the very last row in an auditorium, or perhaps beyond the end of a city block.

Loudness is relatively easy, but projection is a hallmark of a performance artist.
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Liney Bear
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Post by Liney Bear »

Cork, could you explain a bit more on the difference between loudness and volume? How is one achieved differently than the other? Can you say something about the scientific differentiation between the two concepts?
Cork
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Post by Cork »

Liney Bear wrote:Cork, could you explain a bit more on the difference between loudness and volume? How is one achieved differently than the other? Can you say something about the scientific differentiation between the two concepts?
To your three questions...

1) There is temporal loudness, and then there is projection, which as a volume carries much farther.

2) Perhaps loudness comes more easily to the beginning player, while projection is more of a studied art.

3) Yes, science could detect that loudness doesn't necessarily project, but that projection has a loudness of its own.

Basically, when you know the difference between loudness and projection, then you will know the difference.
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Liney Bear
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Post by Liney Bear »

Hmmm. Your answers seem rather vague to me.

1) What is "temporal loudness?" I'm afraid I don't understand.

2) I'm playing and competing for about 10 years now, on pipes, flute, and whistle. The "loudness" you mention never came quickly to me. Still don't understand what's different between "loudness" and "projection."

3) Can you explain how "projection" has more "loudness" than "loudness?" In what specific way does science, as you say, detect that loudness doesn't project? What scientific equipment can be used to measure the aforementioned difference between loudness and projection?

Could you perhaps post a recording that could approximate what you're aiming at? I'd like to hear the difference in tone between "loud" and "projective."
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