What's the best way to do this?

[sbfluter]

Sometimes in place of what is written as a triplet, like in the tune Brenda Stubbert's, instead of a roll which I often can't even fit in the space, I'll just stick a cut in the middle of a note. I hope that's not cheating. Feels like cheating.

[jemtheflute]

It's cheating! But provided it isn't a permanent cop-out cheat, but a pro-tem stepping stone fake, I can't see anyone objecting!

[monkey587]

It's not cheating. You can even just leave out the roll and just play a long note. Or depending on the context it might be a nice opportunity for a breath. Ignore any indication of ornamentation in the sheet music! You can fill that stuff in later on your own using your own taste.

[sbfluter]

Just a comment on the sheet music. I find that I get a lot more targeted responses to my questions when I refer to it rather than the vague "we don't know what you're talking about" answers when I just say like how so-and-so plays it in whatever tune. In other words, I am using the written notation so you know exactly what kind of sounds I'm talking about. I have yet to hear anybody play my example tunes without some kind of ornamentation in those places.

By the way, I got a PM about two-handed B and A rolls. I will have to try that.

[monkey587]

By the way, I got a PM about two-handed B and A rolls. I will have to try that.

I still do that some of the time, although I have found that as I learn to relax, the regular rolls happen OK. So I use them both for variety.

[Guinness]

Fiddler's can't roll on that A so most play the bowed treble.

Open strings can be played with double cuts, for example A{B}A{d}A, not unlike a cran. Alternatively, I suppose one could play an A roll higher up the the neck.

[monkey587]

Fiddler's can't roll on that A so most play the bowed treble.

Open strings can be played with double cuts, for example A{B}A{d}A, not unlike a cran. Alternatively, I suppose one could play an A roll higher up the the neck.

The cran is not a roll, and I've never really noticed anyone do it other than for demonstration purposes, except perhaps Sean Keane. I've never heard anyone bother with playing the A on a different string just to put in a roll when there are plenty of other options available. The closest I can think of is that Randal Bays played it in Gm and rolled the G.

[flutefry]

My own progress from rolls=frustrating mystery to rolls=sometimes OK went through 1) slow careful, deliberate practice which produced lumpy rolls (even-even-slow); 2) two handed rolls on A and B which gave me a model for the first time of what even rolls sound like when I was doing them; 3) to realizing that all that slow deliberate practice had given me tension, and that the answer was to relax, which brought me to decent E, F# and G rolls; to 4) realizing that the trouble I had in the first place with A and B rolls was tension, and that the answer was relaxing more not trying harder.

Hugh

[AaronMalcomb]

Hugh's right, relaxation is the big factor. With rolls it's not much different than drumming with your fingers to articulate the rhythm. Focus on the rhythm and not the ornamentation and it makes more sense. If you approach rolls rhythmically they become second nature which is maybe why some contemporary playing gets overfilled with rolls.

[Guinness]

Fiddler's can't roll on that A so most play the bowed treble.

Open strings can be played with double cuts, for example A{B}A{d}A, not unlike a cran. Alternatively, I suppose one could play an A roll higher up the the neck.

The cran is not a roll, and I've never really noticed anyone do it other than for demonstration purposes, except perhaps Sean Keane. I've never heard anyone bother with playing the A on a different string just to put in a roll when there are plenty of other options available. The closest I can think of is that Randal Bays played it in Gm and rolled the G.

Kevin Burke is another one who does "crans".

Just as roll <> cran, can <> can't.

[awildman]

OK. The bowed triplet, like Paddy Killoran there is simply an alternative to a short roll. Accomplished with quick flicks of the bow. A normal roll is basically the same as a flute roll. Many bowed triplets(trebles) are interchangeable with standard rolls. After all, they both fit in a 1/4 note. I often play through one time with rolls, and the second time through with the bowed triplet, or vice-versa. A fiddle has a bigger variety of tools at it's disposal. Don't worry if you can't duplicate everything that a fiddle is capable of.

A double cut is simply a bow change to articulate a note followed by a left hand cut. You could notate this as A{A}{d}A Double articulation basically. Not the same as an open-string roll which is what I think Guinness was referring to. Although cutting twice to get A{B}{A}{d}A is rather cumbersome. A simple open-string roll is just as effective and way more efficient. A{cB}A The {cB} is achieved by tapping rather than cutting. Different finger motion.

Cutting rather than rolling is perfectly fine on the fiddle, too. For example, the start of the B part of A Fig For a Kiss. One could do short rolls on those 1/4 note g's. But they just sound better on a fiddle when cut. It adds a lot without getting too fancy or cramming too much in. I use this technique more in the jig family than in reels.

[colomon]

Okay, a second sound sample. Though he introduces more variation in the opening phrases, Colm O'Donnell seems to have the same basic approach Paddy Killoran does, with A-triplet figures and a mix of G-triplet figures and G rolls. Sometimes it sounds to me like the triplets use the note below, others all the same note; so I'm not clear on what techniques he's using to achieve the triplets. Opinions?

I admit this is not what I had expected at all when I started this. I had internalized rules that appear to have been a gross over-simplification of things.

For the record, here's Peter Horan playing the same passage. I'm less certain of what's going on here -- the Gs definitely sound like rolls, the As seem to vary.

[gododdin]

I'd kind of assumed that everyone knew about this, but just in case you don't - there is very useful software available for slowing down any kind of media. The most well known (and the one I use) is Amazing Slow Downer, which is available for Win and Mac from www.ronimusic.com. As well as being able to change the speed it can also change the pitch by any increment you want.

The usual disclaimers about me having no connection to the company apply... I just think it works...

Cheers G

[bradhurley]

Colm O'Donnell[/url] seems to have the same basic approach Paddy Killoran does, with A-triplet figures and a mix of G-triplet figures and G rolls. Sometimes it sounds to me like the triplets use the note below, others all the same note; so I'm not clear on what techniques he's using to achieve the triplets. Opinions?

Criminey, this whole discussion has caused me to come out of self-imposed exile (I had 1776 posts, which seemed like a good time for a declaration of independence from C&F). However I've only seen one post here where someone came close to describing what's going on.

These are what I (and most other Irish musicians that I know) call short rolls. I'm pretty sure O'Donnell is doing two-handed short rolls on the A there, which is why the taps are not distinct and why they might sound like triplets when in fact they are short rolls. The tap in this case would fingered:

xxo xxo

It flattens the note slightly but not as much as if you tapped with LH3, so it's a more subtle effect, but when played at speed it sounds like a short roll. The taps on the G rolls are more distinct; he's either tapping with F# or E (I tap with the E myself).

The phrase that sbfluter is asking about comes up a lot in Irish music, and you can hear it several times in the first few bars of The Maid of Mt. Kisco, the tune that colomon posted above.

Rhymically it's "dum-dah-diddly." The "dum" is a note that you want to emphasize and stop at the end so there's a short but clear break before you hit the "dah." The "dah" is emphasized less but is also often stopped at the end before going on. The "diddly" is the short roll, which begins with the cut, then the note, then the tap, then the note. In contrast a long roll begins with the note, then the cut, then the note, then the tap, then the note again.

There's some rhythmic pulsing with the breath that needs to be done in the short roll; you can pick it up by listening to any good flute player.

In the case of The Maid of Mt. Kisco, the tune begins with this phrase.

Dum: E
xxx xxo

Dah: A
xxo ooo

Diddly: short roll on A, fingered any number of ways; here are two examples but there are others:

one-handed:

oxo ooo = cut
xxo ooo = note
xxx ooo = tap
xxo ooo = note

or two-handed:

oxo ooo = cut
xxo ooo = note
xxo xxo = tap
xxo ooo = note

Note that the middle finger of your left hand (LH2) never has to lift.

[Bloomfield]

Dum-dah-diddly is what I hear Paddy Killoran and Colm O'Donnel do on the A. On the following G's they both play what the Good Brother would refer to as an off-beat long roll: Dum-dah-bla-bla.

as in: EA~A2 BA~A2 | EA~A2 BGAG | E~G3 A~G3 | E~G3 EGD2 ...

To my mind on whistle and flute at least where I wouldn't triple tongue (but one could of course), the difference between note+short roll and off-beat long roll is just one rhythmic emphasis on the "dah" which can be varied according to mood and context. When I see it written out, I don't put much stock in whether it is written A~A2 (note + short roll) or ~G3 ([offbeat] long roll).