Speaking of Santa Claus...

[Will O'B]

I loved believing in Santa long after I suspected the truth.

I loved my parents for promoting the magic by leaving personal notes (to me! from Santa!) along with the cookie plate left empty except for crumbs, and the glass of milk drained.

Never once did I feel let down that they were "lying" to me. It never felt like that. It was more like a shared fantasy.

I was delighted to share the same experience with my own kids, and eventually let them in on how my parents had made Christmas so special for me.

ditto

I respect anyone's feelings about this either way. Especially when it comes from a religious perspective. I do, however, know people who still practice the Jewish religion and who, they say, never missed going to visit Santa and always exchanged gifts at home on that day. This was a secular holiday to them without the religious undertones. I think Santa (even in light of the three wise guys) is hard to place in the truly religious context of what the holiday means to the Christian faith.

[FJohnSharp]

Is Santa really so different from the Sesame Street myth? What do people who don't want children believing in fictional characters such as Santa tell their 2 or 3 year old when she is watching Grover on television? What do they do to curb her innocence and imagination so that she doesn't believe that the cute characters are real? What do they say to the child when they see one of the characters in the mall? Do they tell the child that it's just someone wearing a costume who is trying to fool her and that the character on the tube is only a stuffed animal puppet with a person hiding off camera pretending to be the character's voice? Do they tell them that it's silly and a waste of the adult's time for her to go hug the character in the mall because the character is fictional? I don't believe I could do that for any child, even one I didn't like. But that's just me. I suppose, though, that can be seen as a good thing to do for a child. At least, she can never resent the adult for letting her believe a lie when she was little. (Although a cynical few may consider this last reason to be more for the adult's benefit than the child's. )

I'm not trying to be confontational either. But this myth that adults perpetuate on children is far bigger than the big guy in the red suit. And these characters are nondenominational. (Except for one of the teletubbies who, I've heard, is gay - but that's different.) Truthfully, it never occurred to me that children should never be allowed to believe in such things. I always thought that was part of the beauty of childhood.

Anyway, I'm curious too. How do the "non-santa" people here handle these issues? Thanks.

[Paul, I'm not trying to hijack the thread. It seems like this is the same question you were asking, only broader. If you prefer I can start a new thread.]

this probably belongs here rather than in the other thread

Good points. My counter would be that if my child asked me whether Grover was real I'd tell the truth right away. I'd say that Grover is a puppet that is worked by people you can't see, and they are creating a character for you to enjoy. I'm not even sure we're spoiling anything by teaching them the fundamentals of fictional charcters.

With Santa, we work so hard to turn a fictional character into a real one, and that is what I rally hated. I loved the Santa thing as a child but I really pained me to keep woking the deception year after year. Disclaimer: my wife is Jewish and the kids are raised Jewish but we celebrate both and have a tree and everything. I even took them see santa at the mall once. Half their gifts are Christmas and half are Hanukkah. So I was working alone in the Santa department.

The result of that is that my kids both tried to believe in santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy etc long after they really did becasue they thought the gifts would dry up. And my son actually believed in the Easter Bunny longer than anything else. I said, "Are you nuts? The Easter Bunny is the most unbelieveable of them all."

[Will O'B]

Good points. My counter would be that if my child asked me whether Grover was real I'd tell the truth right away. I'd say that Grover is a puppet that is worked by people you can't see, and they are creating a character for you to enjoy. I'm not even sure we're spoiling anything by teaching them the fundamentals of fictional charcters.

this is leading to a lot of cross-posting

Thanks for responding. I totally see your point and agree with it. But it sounds like you are telling the child when the child is old enough to question what is "real". I don't know, but I would think most people probably do this with Santa when the child starts asking. But maybe not. Anyway, it sounded like some people go out of their way to quash the Santa myth before the child even knows who he is. Therefore, not giving the ciild a chance to believe. So, what I was really asking, I guess, is do those people do the same thing with Grover, tooth fairy, Mickey Mouse, etc.? If not, why not? Just curious.

Also, I also know Jewish people who believed in Santa and celebrated the holiday strictly as a secular thing. Which I don't think is hard to do. But let me reiterate what I said earlier, I totally respect anyone's attitudes on this subject either way.

[FJohnSharp]

But it sounds like you are telling the child when the child is old enough to question what is "real". I don't know, but I would think most people probably do this with Santa when the child starts asking. .

Well, if they ask when they're 5, do you tell them? The tradition is to keep it alive as long as posssible. But we as keepers of the tradition have to decide how and when to tell. I mean at 5 they still have 2 or 3 good believing years left, especially if they have a younger sibling. I think mine asked when they were even younger, like maybe 4. But at 4 they aren't really questioning but maybe confirming. So it's easy to say yes when you only have to say it once with conviction for them to be happy.

[BillChin]

I never believed in Santa. Santa never came to my house in the poor inner city. I was cynical before I could pronounce the word. I told some neighbor's kids the ugly truth. I was clinical about it and insistent about it. I regret it now. I wonder now, about how I was given such a hard heart at such a young age, but life in a tough neighborhood may have a lot to do with it.

I see that Santa does come to some inner city neighborhoods. In some ways I find it touching, in some ways it touches a raw nerve about how poor I grew up, and how utterly joyless most of my childhood was. Some of the poor kids get the very best toys now, from various charities, including my own church. Tough subject.

In most cases, Santa is an innocent passion, analogous to cartoon characters or other fictional characters. Santa teaches kids a lesson about generousity. Santa does all he does for some milk and cookies. Some of the Scrooges and Grinches around would do well to learn to give a little more, or a lot more.

[Jerry Freeman]

I had forgotten about this post from awhile back. In case you missed it ...

OK, so the five year old's first baby tooth comes out, amid much excitement among her siblings.

Arleen's been away on some family business, during which time I've been going through the house and freshening up various aspects that she'll be pleased to discover on her return.

So after the small children have gone to bed, and with the big ones detailed to babysit in my absence, I head out to get some things for the house. I come back with a new oriental style rug for the dining room, a soft checkerboard pattern rug for the room the little ones share, a set of three new nonstick skillets, a new 13 inch television for the kitchen, and a desk lamp for the ten year old. I distribute all these things to their various destinations, arranging the skillets on the stove to be discovered in the morning.

The next morning, the children clamor into my bedroom, all excited.

Wow! You should see all the really cool stuff the TOOTH FAIRY left us!!!

Sigh.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[The Weekenders]

Well, I tell ya what... I just watched a movie called "Bad Santa" and now, I am not so sure that he exists, after all.

[Mitch]

At the ripe old age of 4 I didn't believe in Santa Claus.

But I was curious enough to ask why there was an angel on the top of the tree. The explaination my father gave me still supports my belief in Santa Clause to this day! Here's what he said:

"Ah! The angel?? On the top of the tree???? Well my boy, this is why the angel is on top of the tree:

Once upon a time, it was approaching Christmas day. Up in the north pole, Santa was in a foul mood. He'd been in the workshop all day settling an elf-strike, the elves were banging-on about their work-load and sprouting memorized slogans about work/family balance and reasonable toilet breaks that the union elf had primed them with in the morning. He finaly got some industrial peace after pointing out how far it was, over the freezing snow and ice, for them to find a better job down there at Wallmart. On his way home, he tripped over the sleigh that the logistics elves had left out and barked his shins. He got in the door only to find Mrs Clause had hit the Christmas cheer early and was passed-out on the sofa in front of the TV - the room was filled with smoke from the carbonized carbonara smoldering on the stove. After throwing the blackened pots out into the snow, Santa went to raid the fridge, but found nothing there but a piece of moldy cheeze and a limp carrot. SO he ate some dry bread and crackers washed-down by the quarter bottle of Christmass cheer that Mr's Clause had wedged between the cusions of the sofa. Thoroughly seasoned, Santa fell into bed and passed-out, In the morning the harsh arctic sun woke him to the worst hangover he had ever experienced. The banging in his head turned out to be not in his head, but someone banging insistently on his front door. In the foulest temper, Santa, in his underpants, head throbbing like big-ben pulled on his slippers, only to find that Rudolf had left a nasty surprise in one of them. Slopping nasty footprints accross the shag-pile, Santa raged to the door, wrenched it open and shouted "Oh, my goodness! What in the world? Do YOU want!!!!!? Standing there was a cute little angel with a small pine-tree in tow. "Yule-Tide deliveries Mr Clause!!! Where do you want me to stick it???

And, my boy, from that day to this you will always find an angel stuck on the top of a Christmas tree!"

[djm]

Santa does all he does for some milk and cookies.

Sorry, but this is a very wrong concept. Santa does what he does because it is the right thing to do. He does not do it for any form of compensation. That some people may put out milk and cookies for him, and carrots for the reindeer, is an act of kindness by them; not necessary, not required, and certainly not as any form of payment.

djm

[Redwolf]

I rather like this explanation from the NORAD "Track Santa" site:

http://www.noradsanta.org/en/real.htm

Redwolf

[Doug_Tipple]

At the ripe old age of 4 I didn't believe in Santa Claus.

But I was curious enough to ask why there was an angel on the top of the tree. The explaination my father gave me still supports my belief in Santa Clause to this day! Here's what he said:

"Ah! The angel?? On the top of the tree???? Well my boy, this is why the angel is on top of the tree........."

The angel on our tree is a bit unusual. While we were looking for something to top our tree, my wife found Miss Moose with her pearl necklace and high heel shoes, so Miss Moose has become our angel.

[Denny]

Oh, Doug....'at's great!!!

[Redwolf]

Is that the Merry Chris Moose?

Redwolf

[djm]

Merry Christine Moose, perhaps?

djm

[MagicSailor]

The angel on our tree is a bit unusual. While we were looking for something to top our tree, my wife found Miss Moose with her pearl necklace and high heel shoes, so Miss Moose has become our angel.

What were you so upset about when she delivered the tree???

Regards,

Owen Morgan

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