Not entirely on topic: Flutes/whistles as weapons

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:30 pm

A little while back, in the thread "Recorders and Friends" we got way off topic (when do we not?) and Wandering_Whistler pointed the group to a listing in Amazon.com for a book, Fatal Flute and Stick Forms.

Well, I bought a copy and it arrived yesterday. They're using a short bamboo flute--maybe a somewhere near G, but no bigger than a low D, I would think.

Do any of you have experience in the relative durability of flutes/whistles as weapons? I gave my bamboo flutes to my daughter and they're too far away for easy retrieval, since I'm in Gettysburg, PA, and she's in San Jose, CA.

I have an unplayable maple Williamsburg-style fife that would do, just for learning purposes, but if I pull together a demo for the next black belt test, it would be nice to have a working instrument. (I should note that the form doesn't appear to require actually whacking anything or anyone.)

Also, does anyone have experience with this particular form? Our tae kwon do association doesn't usually train with weapons, but the instructor is willing to provide guidance if you don't appear to be a "nut case" (his term).

Marguerite
(I am NOT a nut, but I was recently called a cutie-pie)

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:50 pm

Have you ever used a kubaton? The same self-defense forms that work with a kubaton would work with a whistle or fife. You could also use it point-on to strike at pressure points.

With a low whistle, you might be able to use forms similar to what you would use with a jo (short staff).

A really lightweight whistle, like a Clarke, might not do for self defense, but I would think that even a moderately sized brass whistle would have a lot of possibilities.

Our dojo was big on self-defense...one thing Shihan used to have us do was think about how we could defend ourselves using ordinary objects, and we had to invent three self-defense sets against specific attacks for our green belt test.

Redwolf

gonzo914 · Post by **gonzo914** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 10:23 pm

That's one thing that struck me when I got my first Susato Kildare -- what a nice kubaton it would make. The resemlance is more than passing if you have a black one, and I think the lump on the end would be particularly effective for raking ribs. And I'd really hate to get hit under the nose with the mouthpiece end. It does, however, flex a little bit if you do a wrist restraint. (OK -- I'll admit it -- I tried it.)

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:20 pm

It would be nice if you could find some Arnis
or Eskrima practitioners in your area. My
blackwood irish flute is only one inch shorter than the cane sticks I used in Arnis
(Filipino stick, knife and hand martial art).
The shorter, higher keyed whistles would
translate nicely into stabbing, pinning,
and trapping techniques of the Tabak Malii
(palm stick) or Kubotan. Weapons are merely
extensions of one's hands. Hapkido cane
techniques that don't involve the "crook" of
a cane might be applicable too.

serpent · Post by **serpent** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:04 am

Marguerite, I know you thought about it -- tell us your views on the martial arts capabilities of the D flute you just checked out! (It was chromoly, 7/8" OD, 0.035 wall - about the same length and weight as an escrima stick, and practically indestructible).

Bill Whedon

Cyfiawnder · Post by **Cyfiawnder** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:06 am

When I studied Tai Kwon DO we didn't use weapons either. But my years of Okinawan Ninjitsu training was different. The difference I can see is in Tai Kwon Do you learn how to defend Your self, In Ninja Pheonix You litterally learn how to be a ninja. So Training with all sort of Weapons, except for Bow and Arrow, was as important as training without. That included stealth movements and weapons training in Darkness. Since assasin training is partially how to blend in to a croud strike then blend back in, training with object that are close to a "real" weapon was a necessity. A Han-bo is only 3 feet long, so a Low D or C between 21 and 24 inches would be just as effective as a han-bo, and would not stick out as much. Sure you don't see too many people carrying flutes/whistles around anymore... but you also don't see anyone carrying around 3 foot wooden poles either, and In most people's minds someone carrying and instrument appears less likely to do violence than a "normal" person. Kobaton forms would work... but most Kobatons are under 12 inches so a high D might work better for that. Any forms involving short staff fighting would be excelent.
(No I'm not a nut either, In fact I'm rather non-violent. I ran out of agression playing varsity Ice Hockey in high school... But I am a security guard in a building that doesn't allow "weapons of any kind" so who would suspect a Whistle?

msheldon · Post by **msheldon** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:15 am

My Chieftain Gold Low-D is a serious weapon. It's heavy, and the fipple-block is solid brass. It weighs in less than a half-ounce shy of one pound. Essentially, it would be no different than fighting with a two-foot piece of pipe.

The high-d would work very nicely as a kubotan. A little long, but heavy enough to take the abuse, and still play a nice jig when it's over.

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:42 am

The Cooperman Fife and Drum Company has finally stopped making those lousy maple fifes. Maybe it was all the complaining we fifers did that got them to stop. Pat Cooperman used to say it was just a toy for the tourist trade, but I bet it discouraged plenty of potential fifers. The Cooperman concert series (one piece) is a very nice fife.

A much better weapon would be a nice pair of Cooperman's bass beaters (drumsticks for rudimental bass drumming). You could even put some kind of cord between a pair and make a set of those nunchuks (sp?).

The bass beaters are around 15" long and weigh maybe 90 - 100 grams (just under 1/4 pound) each.

_________________
B flat or begone!

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-11-18 01:44 ]

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:25 am

The Copeland low D is made of
brass and has a raised window
which leaves a characteristic
welt on your victim. Highly
recommended.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:11 am

Marguerite,

As I understand it, you have a Gettysburg Address, and you've been away so long, you may go wrong and lose your way (to San Jose).

Did I get that right?

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:23 am

On 2002-11-17 22:30, mvhplank wrote:
A little while back, in the thread "Recorders and Friends" we got way off topic (when do we not?) and Wandering_Whistler pointed the group to a listing in Amazon.com for a book, Fatal Flute and Stick Forms.

my bad

Do any of you have experience in the relative durability of flutes/whistles as weapons? I gave my bamboo flutes to my daughter

I wouldn't imagine that bamboo would be very durable, though some bamboo is harder than others when dried. I once broke an Erik the Flutemaker bamboo flute into many little bitty pieces on my older brother's shin, when we were teenagers. Hurt his shin, but then I was left to my own devices.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:45 am

I KNEW this would be fun!

--Redwolf & Gonzo914, I have used a kubaton, but it has been a while. I think my Elfsongs are sturdy enough to perform that function, if I weren't afraid of chipping that beautiful paint job. Our studio (instructor won't call it a "dojo"--he uses the English for almost everything) is the location for the community college self-defense course each grading period. We do mostly "grips and grabs," or rather escaping from same.

--Stan, Master Joe Mansfield comes to the main studio to do an Arnis clinic once a year. I'll admit that I thought practicing with one of my canes would fill in for a flute nicely. A group in Arizona that my instructor visits each year has a participant who is in her 80s and is said to be very proficient in using her cane for defense.

--Bill, you're right, the D flute would be a formidable weapon! Plenty sturdy and not too heavy to swing around. The copper G was smaller but weightier and would work well, too.

--Cyfiawnder, how conspicuous would I be with my new 6-foot bo staff?

Just holding it makes me feel like Gandalf. I'm just now learning how not to drop it or accidentally hit someone else or the wall.

--Jim McC, drum beaters? A good idea, but I wanted to connect it to something I already do--whistle and flute. But I bet the Arnis instructor could show me a thing or two to do with them!

--Martin Milner, you're mostly right, except since I've never actually been to San Jose, I'll have ti visit there first before I can find my way back.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:54 am

On 2002-11-18 07:23, Wandering_Whistler wrote:

I wouldn't imagine that bamboo would be very durable, though some bamboo is harder than others when dried. I once broke an Erik the Flutemaker bamboo flute into many little bitty pieces on my older brother's shin, when we were teenagers. Hurt his shin, but then I was left to my own devices.

Actually, the rattan Arnis sticks take quite a lot of punishment. Traditionally, they are scorched to make them more durable. But since I am planning to learn a form and the "basics" that go with using a flute/short stick, I don't plan to be giving it a stress test. I've got some Arnis canes to do that with.

So...what was your brother's response? You obviously survived the encounter

Marguerite

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:55 am

(quote)I wouldn't imagine that bamboo would be very durable, though some bamboo is harder than others when dried.

The root end of bamboo, traditionally used to make Shakuhachi, is very hard and durable indeed. The story I have heard is that at one time only the Samuri were allowed to carry weapons. Wandering monks in feudal Japan who raised funds by playing their flutes kept on getting robbed of their few yen. They started making Shakuhachi out of root end bamboo so they could use them as weapons-- that hard, heavy knob at the end is a formidable weapon indeed!

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:16 am

In the Haiku section of C&F there was one that really made me laugh. I can't remember who wrote it, but it fits in here:

A small Irish pub
An ugly fight beginning
Low D heard ringing