Embouchure Question

[srt19170]

Tongue placement, really. Normally when I'm playing my the tip of my tongue is over the top of my lower teeth and touching the back of my lower lip. Is that correct/acceptable, or should my tongue be completely behind my lower teeth? I took a look in Grey Larsen's book and it is a little ambiguous on this point -- he actually doesn't say much one way or the other about tongue placement.

Thanks for any advice.

[Flutered]

Think there was a related thread to this a few days ago by 'Chas'. He was trying to unlearn the tongue on the lip thing, if my recall is correct.

[Gabriel]

I guess it's up to you. Wouldn't say that there is a right or a wrong way. I know many people who use their tongue to stabilize the lower lip. I don't, but I can't say why. I simply learned it that way.

A drawback might be that tongueing notes isn't possible if you use your tongue for your embouchure. Maybe that's the reason why glottal stops where introduced to irish flute music. I don't use my tongue at all.

[jemtheflute]

Tongue should lie relaxed within arc of bottom teeth save when used to strike the palate when tonguing (if you do). If I get mine forward of that (never tried to till just now - seems totally counter-intuitive) to touch the back of the lower lip, it just gets in the way, restricts the airstream, probably mis-directs it too and muffles the sound. Seems to me it should be avoided for sure!

[ChrisCracknell]

Absolutely, what Jem said... Learn to have the lips hold themselves steady.

Also, some people tongue with the tip of the tongue directly sealing the aperture between the lips - however this leads to a disturbance of the lips (you are tapping them after all) and instability of the embouchure when tonguing and I don't particularly like it. One might even call it a mistake if one were inclined to offer value judgements... (heaven forbid!)

And yes, many very good players play exceptionally in spite of apparent "mistakes" and "bad technique", but I would contend that they mostly do so _in spite of_, not _because of_, the peculiar technique. Just like some people can play wonderfuly on a completely knackered flute - doesn't follow that the flute is helping them sound wonderful.

Chris

[sbfluter]

Maybe there's some value in learning tonguing at first so that you know what to do with your tongue when you aren't using it. I don't even notice my tongue.

[srt19170]

Thanks for the advice.

I did see the related thread, but Chaz seemed to be more concerned about pushing out against the lower lip, which I don't really do. However, when I have my tongue over my teeth, I'm directing the airstream mostly with my tongue and upper lip, and I think that makes it harder to tongue.

I don't really tongue much (if at all) so it hasn't been a problem, but I'd like to be well-rounded and have that in my arsenal at least, so I think I need to "unlearn" a new tongue position.

[Cork]

Tongue placement, really. Normally when I'm playing my the tip of my tongue is over the top of my lower teeth and touching the back of my lower lip...

The tongue is used for articulation, and really has nothing to do with embouchure.

Embouchure is where you meet the flute.

Try to keep the tongue away from the embouchure.

Come right back, here, to discuss any details, please.

[smoro]

Tongue placement, really. Normally when I'm playing my the tip of my tongue is over the top of my lower teeth and touching the back of my lower lip. Is that correct/acceptable, or should my tongue be completely behind my lower teeth? I took a look in Grey Larsen's book and it is a little ambiguous on this point -- he actually doesn't say much one way or the other about tongue placement.

Thanks for any advice.

I do the same, and I have been playing the flute in that way for over 17 years. I tried to change to a more "right" tongue position, but after a crisis period I couldn´t. It didn´t work for me, so I though: Why I have to change if I can play in tune with a reasonable good tone and volumen? So I came back to my normal playing and I am happy now.
Regards,
S.

[srt19170]

I paid attention to my tongue during session today and I've come to the conclusion that its position is usually fine. When my mouth is relaxed (not playing the flute, that is) my tongue naturally overlaps the top of my lower front teeth a bit. It ends up in the same position, more or less, when I'm playing. I'm not great at tonguing, but I think that's as much a lack of practice as anything.

I may have a tendency to push my tongue forward when narrowing my embouchure, so I'll keep an eye on that (figuratively) to avoid bad habits.

[cocusflute]

So I came back to my normal playing and I am happy now.

Absolutely. Once again proving the futility and even counter-productiveness of giving advice over the internet. Those offering their "wisdom" haven't seen the player, have not heard the player, and are only moderately accomplished themselves. On this basis, how can one presume to give advice? Next time you might ask somebody to provide a sound clip or a video before telling them what to do or not do.
There are as many different "correct" embouchures as there are ways of holding the flute. Here we have an accomplished player (smoro) who again demonstrates that it is the sound that matters and not what your grade school flute teacher thinks is the proper technique.
Brendan Mulholland, a world-class player who has been playing for over thirty years, said in another post that he would never think of telling another player what to do over the net. Yet on this forum we have relative beginners offering instruction to people who are sincerely looking for advice.

Boyd Peters, one of our resident docs, cautioned us about giving advice on the issue of possible carpal tunnel syndrome. Of course anybody who takes seriously the advice given by most chancers on this forum might deserve what they get, like the unwary EBay buyer who believes everything he reads in the description.

[Guinness]

I find your advice, well, circular but point taken-- I often cringe upon reading what I perceive as bad advice or misinformation.

Yes, there's lots of bad advice but there's also good advice and then there's inappropriate (out of context) advice. For example, a recommendation to practice at least four hours a day might be good advice for an advanced player, but inappropriate for a beginner. Therein lies the problem: distinguishing the good from the bad and the appropriate. Solicitations often draw out opposing opinions and criticisms, which on the one hand provides the OP and interested readers with a balanced view, but at the cost of creating confusion (and tangents). Truth is most people fulfill their self-made prophecies anyways and read/hear the words they want to read/hear and ignore all the rest.

IMHO, it's probably more useful and honest to relate personal "experiences", whether one is a new or seasoned player.

[rama]

nodody is special. everyone has a right to express their opinion within the posting guidelines. you do not have to be a professional embouchurian to talk about embouchure just as you do not have to be a doctor to talk about wrist pain. in my experience, people operating under those ideas are stifling and censoring. is this is really the place to be seeking professional advice? you may be in the wrong forum if you seek or give on that basis. go to the pub forum for that. oh, just don't use the word * lichen *. ymmv

[bepoq]

I don't agree that nobody is special. You maybe right that noone is born with the divine right to have their general opinion on any given subject be valued more than another, but we are not discussing opinions that have been born with, nor divine right, nor a philosophical topic. We are discussing techinique for playing a wooden flute in traditional Irish style, a learned and developed skill, and I have no doubt that I value some people's opinions more in this respect than I do others', not infrequently connected to their experience and ability (taken together before anyone jumps on one or the other). Matt Molloy is most definitely special when it comes to this for example, as, not coincidentally, is Garry Shannon, who at least used to play some ferocious music with his tongue firmly behind his lower lip (I've not asked him about his technique recently). It constantly disturbes me that moderate players offer confident, and unequivocal sounding advice to beginners on this forum without ever acknowledging their own no better than moderate ability and without allowing that given such ability their advice may well be dodgy. (This is not particularly aimed at the two above in particular as I've no knowledge of their playing, though I think that the unequivocal nature of at least one of the posts in this particular case is mendacious. It is in support of cocusflute's post.)

As for me, I would suggest that if you feel you might want to use tonguing for articulation when you play, then you might want to try to change where you currrently store it when playing, if not, perhaps not. It does however become progressively more difficult (or possibly more frustrating) to make such a change as it becomes more a fundamental part of the way you play, so there might well be an advantage in getting your tongue free just in case you decide you want to use it some time in the future.

[rama]

bepoq,

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=10316
the 'nobody is special' is taken from our posting policies. i was not clear about the context of my usage of that. i did not mean people in general aren't special or gifted etc. i can see your point though and understand your sentiment.