Next Key

[jemtheflute]

Change keys.

Cool, I hate half holing (from renaissance recorder days). Then, can I assume that most irish music in print is under this theory and they print the music according to the whistle keys?

No to the latter point. They just print the music. You have to look at the key signature, check the tessitura of the tune and try it out. That said, the vast majority of ITM dance tunes are playable on D whistle. There are some that are conventionally played in other keys, such as D minor or related modes (C whistle) or A major (possible on D whistle but more comfortable on an A) but they don't crop up that much at your average session. There are also tunes designed for fiddle usage that "go off the bottom" of flutes and whistles, that we have to adapt with judicious octave shifts or melodic harmonising variation. If you come across someone playing tunes on a whistle other than D, odds are that they are just doing so for the hell of it, (e.g. "Eb sessions"), actually playing exactly as they would on a D instrument. Song accompanying, as I think we said earlier, is a different kettle of fish.

[pancelticpiper]

Now this is just in regard to normal session playing (I mean Irish sessions, where a bunch of people sit around in a pub and blow through dozens of reels and jigs on various instruments). The vast majority of the tunes are handled on a D instrument, because the session repertoire was evolved mainly on the trio of fiddle, flute, and uilleann pipes, two of the three being in D. Not to say that these tunes are all in the KEY of D, not at all. Using the cross-fingered (or fork-fingered) C natural, the Irish traditional wind instruments (pipes, flute, and whistle) play tunes in the following keys:
using C sharp: D major, E dorian, G lydian (yep some of those), A mixolydian, and B minor
using C natural: D mixolydian, E minor, G major, A dorian, C lydian.
And, there's the concept of "inflection" whereby certain notes, specifically F and C, have a tendency to fluctuate between natural and sharp. This F natural IS done by half-holing. Yes many flutes and pipes have an F natural key, but the half-holed F sounds more idiomatic.
Anyhow, there does exist in the session repertoire a number of tunes favoured by players of the fiddle, tenor banjo, and accordion which go below the "bottom D" of the pipes, flute, and whistle. Also these people play some tunes in keys difficult or nearly impossible on Irish D instruments. For these tunes, at sessions, I use the following whistles:
D (nearly everything)
A (Beare Reel etc)
G (Tam Linn etc)
C (Julia Delaney etc)
E (Foxhunter's Reel etc)
In a typical session I use all of them.

[NicoMoreno]

Now this is just in regard to normal session playing (I mean Irish sessions, where a bunch of people sit around in a pub and blow through dozens of reels and jigs on various instruments). The vast majority of the tunes are handled on a D instrument, because the session repertoire was evolved mainly on the trio of fiddle, flute, and uilleann pipes,

It seems like you have a very strange view of irish traditional music. If you are in fact talking about "session repertoire" then you're wrong, because sessions would have included box, concertina, and whistle, as much, if not more than, pipes. If you actually mean the repertoire of irish traditional music (which is emphatically not the same as "session repertoire") then you'd still most likely be wrong as current research indicates a much later introduction of the flute to irish music than would allow for it's influence on the moulding of the tunes. Besides, most of the flutes had keys, and in fact a lot of good flute players did use them.

Also these people play some tunes in keys difficult or nearly impossible on Irish D instruments. For these tunes, at sessions, I use the following whistles:
D (nearly everything)
A (Beare Reel etc)
G (Tam Linn etc)
C (Julia Delaney etc)
E (Foxhunter's Reel etc)
In a typical session I use all of them.

That's it folks, those are the only 4 tunes that aren't playable without accidentals, that are included in the "session repertoire".

(Never mind that a lot of people play foxhunters in G, and a lot of people play paddy fahey tunes, ed reavy tunes, larry redican tunes... need I go on? )

[pancelticpiper]

Nico, those tunes were listed as examples for each key and were not intended as any sort of complete listing. I guess some people can't grasp the idea of giving AN EXAMPLE, or the meaning of "etc.".
As far as my "strange view" of Irish traditional music, at least I'm in good company, specifically in company with Tomas O Canainn and Breandan Breathnach. O Canainn, in "Traditional Music Of Ireland" writes:
"In an instrumental tradition where the tunes are not written down but are actually composed of the instrument itself and transmitted orally, it is clear that to a large extent they will carry something of the character of the instrument on which they were composed. The composer will automatically favour certain movements and passages which are either easy on the particular instrument or in some way typical of its use in the tradition, or perhaps be considered uniquely a property of the particular instrument and not available on others. A discussion of style must therefore include a detailed analysis of those instruments which have been important in the tradition and on which the music is still played, for it is here tha style is formed and reshaped by succeeding generations. In the Irish context this means that probably the two most important instruments in the living tradition are the uilleann pipes and the fiddle...In confining our attention to pipes and fiddle in this analysis we are neglecting whistle and flute which do, however, owe a lot of their stylistic devices to the pipes and may thus be considered to be under discussion in the section on uilleann pipes. Some traditional musicians will rightly point out that in disregarding the free-reed instruments such as accordion, concertina, and mouth organ we are leaving out the most popular instruments in the present tradition. This in undoubtedly true, but if one is attempting to define traditional stylistic aspects of Irish music it is clear that they must be sought primarily on the instruments which have helped to shape that tradition."
Breathnach writes in "Folk Music and Dances of Ireland";
"The introduction of the second row on the (button) accordion effected a revolution in the style of playing, the effects of which are not confined entirely to players of the instrument, but they may be detected also in the playing of some young fiddlers. Fortunately, because of the limitations of their instruments, pipers, flute players and whistle players are largely immune from this contagion."
and
"The pessimist must acknowledge that the many young players who show amazing powers of execution on pipes and fiddle, flute and whistle, will assure the continuance of the tradition into the next century."
So probably our two best scholars on the music consider the pipes and fiddle, with flute and whistle, to be the traditional vehicles for the music both in the past and in the future.

[houstonwhistler]

One thing to be aware of, if you are considering a high g whistle, is that the whistle itself is very small and the holes are very close together. Unless your hands and fingers are small, you may have a hard time playing it. I had one, but gave it to my young niece, who expressed an interest in playing. My hands wouldn't fit the whistle. However, Generation makes a brass and a nickle model, so you can try one for less than $10.

[Tucson Whistler]

This is off topic, but it's something I've noticed and just wanted to comment on. People ask questions wanting to get different ideas and opinions, and we really appreciate all the great input. But when someone gives their opinion and gets slammed or laughed at because of it, it kinda takes the fun out of it. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion (that's why we ask). Anyway, i'm new on the board and I really do apprecaite all the information i get here. I hope I haven't made a major mistake by doing this. I'm sorry if I have. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE!!

I've also been trying to figure out the next most useful whistle, so thanks for all the great advice.

[ofloyd]

This is off topic, but it's something I've noticed and just wanted to comment on. People ask questions wanting to get different ideas and opinions, and we really appreciate all the great input. But when someone gives their opinion and gets slammed or laughed at because of it, it kinda takes the fun out of it. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion (that's why we ask). Anyway, i'm new on the board and I really do apprecaite all the information i get here. I hope I haven't made a major mistake by doing this. I'm sorry if I have. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE!!

I've also been trying to figure out the next most useful whistle, so thanks for all the great advice.

I'm with you. I have also learned alot and appreciate the forum very, very much!!

[Cayden]

This is off topic, but it's something I've noticed and just wanted to comment on. People ask questions wanting to get different ideas and opinions, and we really appreciate all the great input. But when someone gives their opinion and gets slammed or laughed at because of it, it kinda takes the fun out of it. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion (that's why we ask). Anyway, i'm new on the board and I really do apprecaite all the information i get here. I hope I haven't made a major mistake by doing this. I'm sorry if I have. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE!!

I'm with you. I have also learned a lot and appreciate the forum very, very much!!

It's the old issue and the great bone of contention: the forums are a medium where every man and his dog post. But:<i>'on the internet nobody knows you're a dog' </i>and it is a common feature that the loudest and most insistent poster can present himself as 'THE' authority on just about any matter.

Beginners seem to be uncritically grateful for any advice offered and often accept the advice that seems to fit them best. While, let's face it, a lot of advice here is posted by people who have little in the way of experience, background or credentials. I see loads of statements and advice posted here that is at best nonsense, ill-informed a lot of the time and in a lot of cases downright counter-productive and harmful to a learner's progress. Unfortunately polite on-board consensus forbids speaking up about that.

The fun was taken out of it long ago.


I don't accept by the way session repertoire is a different entity, it may be in some circles but not among traditional musicians

[pancelticpiper]

Just for the record, note that I do not ever present myself as an authority; rather, I post quotes from people I consider to be authorities. I'm just a person who has spent 30 years listening, playing, and reading and fully appreciates that the more one learns, the more one is aware of how much is yet to be learned.

[Tucson Whistler]

Just for the record, note that I do not ever present myself as an authority; rather, I post quotes from people I consider to be authorities. I'm just a person who has spent 30 years listening, playing, and reading and fully appreciates that the more one learns, the more one is aware of how much is yet to be learned.

I for one think you have some of the best well-tought-out advice.

[Björn]

Strange way to think of it! Once you have mastered a whistle, any whistle, in all the keys and modes it readily provides, in key terms at least you can play any other whistle, and play all the material you know on the others.

Make that a sticky post!

[NicoMoreno]

As far as my "strange view" of Irish traditional music, at least I'm in good company,

Well, I don't know about Tomas, but I'm pretty sure Breandan would have something to say about how strange this sounds:

Now this is just in regard to normal session playing (I mean Irish sessions, where a bunch of people sit around in a pub and blow through dozens of reels and jigs on various instruments). The vast majority of the tunes are handled on a D instrument, because the session repertoire...

Just for the record this is what I'm referring to as being a strange view of irish music. The fact that you totally missed it only confirms to me that you have a strange view of irish music.... As if somehow "session repertoire" and "normal session playing" is the pinnacle of irish traditional music or is the tradition.

I think you'll note, too that both your quotes reflect my further statements about the flute and whistle. And again, current research etc.

To reword the bit about session repertoire, it is my opinion that "session repertoire" is but a small subset of irish traditional music, often neglecting loads of great tunes, and often played in a style that can be nicely described as generic. This is mostly in North America, mind you, although I encountered it in a session in Cork, as well. The opposite can be true of sessions too, witness Patrick Ourceau's session just down the road in Toronto...
EDITED to clarify: I mean that "session repertoire" and "irish traditional music" are not synonymous. That's mainly why I think you have a strange view of irish music, because it seems you think they are.

Anyway, the bit about the tunes was pure taking the piss, as you've mentioned those same tunes in combination with those whistle keys in previous posts.

[houstonwhistler]

It's unfortunate that someone can't ask a simple question or solicit a simple opinion without the thread being hijacked by people who are insecure enough to need others to see them as some kind of authority. I think anyone who comes here knows that free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. I also think people post here to ask opinions or to share a common interest with others from around the world, not to watch someone grind their personal axe.

[Bloomfield]

I also think people post here to ask opinions or to share a common interest with others from around the world, not to watch someone grind their personal axe.

Really? Our old flame threads were always much more popular than threads about actual whistle questions or, heaven forbid, the music.

P.S.: You're threadjacking.

[Cayden]

It's unfortunate that someone can't ask a simple question or solicit a simple opinion without the thread being hijacked by people who are insecure enough to need others to see them as some kind of authority. I think anyone who comes here knows that free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. I also think people post here to ask opinions or to share a common interest with others from around the world, not to watch someone grind their personal axe.

A typical C&F reply.

I made a general remark, admittedly venting some frustration about attitudes, the state of advice given and all that, and out comes a representative of the the moral majority looking after the board's wellbeing to put in a dig that's totally and utterly unnecessary personal ('people insecure enough...').

That reply exemplifies all that bugs me about how quite some people interact on board and the petty unpleasantness that lurks just under the pretend civil surface, ready to break loose as soon as an opinion diverging from the consensus is aired.