Tonguing question

[StevieJ]

FWIW, I listened to one of the clips Lawhistle posted of his tutor, and whatever that person's pedigree, s/he uses far too much tonguing for my taste - not Finneganesque, but obtrusive and harsh.

Horses for courses... fine playing, absolutely nothing wrong with it in my book. But then I like books to have lots of pages.

[jemtheflute]

Are you sure about 'the techniques he uses as occasionally appropriate in and enhancing of ITM '? I think the 'enhancing of ITM' is questionable where that style of playing is involved.

I certainly am not keen (personal taste) on Brian Finnegan's playing, though I do admire his ability to do what he does. Many of his techniques, like staccato runs, triple tonguing and flutter tonguing are certainly not part of the "orthodox" ITM repertory of techniques, whatever that is. I don't mind them being used very occasionally in contexts where they really add something to an interpretation, make a point of some kind, communicate something - and yes, I do think that used judiciously, with restraint, they can do so and in ways that do not stick out as incongruous or alien to the music. Endorsing that kind of limited use of particular techniques to enhance the expression of the music is not the same thing as suggesting their wholesale adoption to produce a new style, which Finnegan unquestionably has done - and it is a style which I do not find conducive, even though I would not see myself as purist or unduly conservative about these matters.

That is not sour grapes, either - I can do some of the things Brian does, though less well. If I could sustain them as he does, I would not choose to. That is personal taste, and I agree with other posters who extoll variety. Brian Finnegan is commercially successful and has many imitators, so his style assuredly pleases and engages many people, and I do not think that is a bad or regrettable thing, but I don't have to like it - or listen to it!

[Eldarion]

Eldarion,
Can I ask you where you got the "traditional musicians frown on tonguing" quote from? I hope you are not attributing it to me.

I didn't attribute the stance to you specifically but you were surely quick to defend it. See: "not bull" and:

lawhistle; you say your teacher is a master musician, I am just curious, surely he is not a master traditional Irish music teacher? He would not be allowing you to tongue as much as you are other wise.

Good on you for refining your argument now though.

What I'm really frustrated about is people going around saying things to the effect of "tonguing is untraditional" and stuff like that. As a result you get a bunch of beginner whistlers that will avoid tonguing like the plague thinking they have to do so in order to fall into an ITM playing style. Which of course is bull.

You mention that in Ireland there are still die hard traditionalist who frown on tonguing. Even if you fail to provide any names, I can accept that if you are talking about a micro-regional phenomenon. However I think it has to be made clear that not tonguing is not necessarily associated with "die hard traditionalism" (whatever that is). This is also why the quantification of how much tonguing one should use in playing ITM is pointless because in the end its all an issue of personal taste/regionality.

What galls me is the 'I have encountered one too many Irish person with little clue about their own traditional music' statement.

I cannot help but think of them when I come across statements like:

Tucson Whistler; tonguing is not as important as slurring. Out of 100 percent of your playing only 1 or 2 percent should be tongued, if any.

[johnnyboi]

It sure is interesting reading the diversity of opinions on the subject.

I've heard a lot of crappy beginner whistlers tonguing every note as if they were playing a recorder - somehow the concept of "ornamentation" just went above their heads... so I can see why some teachers and players would prefer to de-emphasise it's role somewhat, wishing that newer players would learn proper ornamentation first, and then introduce tonguing later when they can make a judgement for themselves and aren't just using it because they can't cran properly or whatever. I suppose its like violinists - they all use vibrato; some a lot, some sparingly - but the teacher makes sure when you're learning you're not just doing it to hide bad intonation.

So I think both sides are right - to a player who has mastered the whistle, it is simply a matter a taste, and how one wishes to define their individual style. However, acknowledging the piping roots to which a lot of the music owes itself, I'm sure there are purists out there who would argue against any tonguing at all. To the beginner, it is almost certainly possible that they could tongue "too much", and a good tutor would advise them as such.

Just my own thoughts.

[jemtheflute]

Very sensible thoughts, johnnyboi!

Of course, recorder players and classically trained flute players by no means tongue every note when playing properly (unless that is what is written)! Even at beginners level, they should be taught to slur as well as tongue - and will have such articulation and phrasing instructions written in the music they work on from quite an early stage. It is not true to say they are taught uniformly to tongue every note! That (perceived) problem is an issue (that has been dealt with elsewhere) to do with how highly trained (not just beginner) classical musicians read sheet music - unless they are duly informed that no slurring/phrasing is conventionally written into transcriptions of folk music but is assumed as an idiomatic understanding, they will play what they think they see written - no slurs = tongue/bow/pluck everything. If they are picking trad tunes up by ear, they are unlikely to try to tongue everything.

[johnnyboi]

Hehe funnily enough, when I played concert flute for years in high school and before, my teacher kept correcting me when I played notes slurred that should be tongued - I kept putting my own spin on the tune (or I was just lazy) :p
I guess he was right, because I wasn't at the level to be messing with the music, but perhaps I see now why I find trad music more appealing!

And you're right - it's a mistake to think classical musicans are trained to tongue every note: they aren't. But the tongue (or absence thereof) and how it is used is the basis for pretty much all the articulation you can do - staccato, legato, slurs, whatever. When I first came to play ITM I hadn't been given any lessons but it just seemed intuitive to not tongue every note, regardless of how the music looked - that would've sounded silly!

[colomon]

You mention that in Ireland there are still die hard traditionalist who frown on tonguing. Even if you fail to provide any names, I can accept that if you are talking about a micro-regional phenomenon. However I think it has to be made clear that not tonguing is not necessarily associated with "die hard traditionalism" (whatever that is).

To elaborate -- looking at Grey Larsen's excellent transcriptions, Willie Clancy, Josie McDermott, and Micho Russell all regularly use tonguing in the whistle tunes he transcribes, and actually he claims the first two are using double tonguing sometimes. If Ceili_whistle_man has teachers older and more traditional than those guys, then I am very interested in learning more about them.

On the other hand, his Seamus Ennis transcription contains huge legato phrases and very little tonguing, so it is by no means a universal thing. Perhaps instead of a regional thing, it's simply a style of playing the whistle more like the pipes? (Yes, Clancy was a piper, but he'd been playing whistle for more than a decade before he took up the pipes.)

(For what it's worth, I tongue considerably less than the Clancy, McDermott, and Russell examples, and considerably more than the Ennis...)

[Mitch]

My 2cents

As a beginner, I just wanted to sound like all those great Irish players when I attempted playing those great Irish tunes.

To begin with, I had to de-program my tendency to tootle. So it was very important to teach my toungue to keep out of the way of the embellishments. After a a couple of years of this, I am now ready to start training the tongue to do musical things.

Like everything in ITM - it's the rhythm. If any technique does not add to the rhythm then it's not ITM.

I've heard it said of Brid O'Donohue that she is a master of tongueing - so I listen very closely - there's not a lot of it, and where it is, it is seemless and part of the whole thing.

As a non-expert, my current quest is to explore the use of tongueing and generally keep it off the downbeat. So this thread is very interesting - more clips would help to demonstrate the various points of view (many thanks to those who have posted clips).

Like any leaning curve, there's a lot to explore and discover. Once mastered, it will be then up to the musician to choose technique appropriate to the performance. Until the techniques are mastered it all seems like speculation.

For me it would have been disasterous to introduce tongueing before I'd gotten sense out of finger articulation. My teacher tells me - "you can do it this way, or this. or this - just careful to not make it too lumpy."

[Traveler]

I find [Brian Finnegan's] constant fancy tonguing obtrusive, annoying, too often just show-offy virtuosity for it's own sake, not applied to the service of the music. Unfortunately he has spawned a host of (mostly young) imitators -as showy virtuosi often do.

This is blasphemy, I tell you... BLASPHEMY!!

You won't find me among "youthful, showy virtuiosi." I'm old, meek and lowly , and will likely never hear the "V" word spoken about me in the context of ITM. I came to ITM after a career playing lead trumpet in jazz bands (Air Force, professional show bands, studio stints, etc), so I have a natural inclination to work "doodle-tonguing" into my whistle playing. That's especially the case in tunes like Dinkey Dorian's where there are WAY too many B and A rolls for me to play without involving the tongue (I play in sessions where this tune is played FAST -- 120 bpm plus).

Yes, I've heard people play tastelessly, using tonguing and inappropriate phrasing, oblivious to even the concept of ornamentation, and impervious to criticism. However, I think well executed legato-tongued rolls actually sound better than the finger-articulated ones in tunes played at break-neck speeds. The "M" part of "ITM" is more than "finger chops" (to borrow a phrase from my former idiom). It's the whole package -- notes, ornaments, inflection, space, phrasing, technique -- it's music. Indeed, there's much to learn, and I consider Brian Finnegan to be among the many masters to learn from. His music is exciting, and his technique is dazzling.

I've heard it said of Brid O'Donohue that she is a master of tongueing - so I listen very closely - there's not a lot of it, and where it is, it is seemless and part of the whole thing.

Yeah... that's it!! "Seamless and part of the whole thing!"

[Eldarion]

However, acknowledging the piping roots to which a lot of the music owes itself, I'm sure there are purists out there who would argue against any tonguing at all.

This statement is based on the assumption that piping is necessarily legato in nature. If you listen to the likes of Patsy Touhey, Andy Conroy, or even more well known uilleann pipers like Ennis, you would hear that the piping is very much articulated; not solely by cuts and taps but with deliberate silences between each note. It provides a staccato effect and is analogous to stopping the flow of air with tonguing on the whistle.

To the beginner, it is almost certainly possible that they could tongue "too much", and a good tutor would advise them as such.

Again I think this criticism more often than not, means tonguing in the wrong ways and places than actually tonguing too much. The beginner may be advised to avoid tonguing for a while but I think this in order that he/she may reset the old habits from previous training backgrounds.

[AaronMalcomb]

To elaborate -- looking at Grey Larsen's excellent transcriptions, Willie Clancy, Josie McDermott, and Micho Russell all regularly use tonguing in the whistle tunes he transcribes, and actually he claims the first two are using double tonguing sometimes.

Listen to Josie McDermott's playing of Denis Murphy's/John Ryan's Polkas on "Darby's Farewell" and you'll hear lots of tonguing, even triple tonguing, used for ornamentation as much (if not more) as articulation.

[jemtheflute]

.....I have a natural inclination to work "doodle-tonguing" into my whistle playing. That's especially the case in tunes like Dinkey Dorian's where there are WAY too many B and A rolls for me to play without involving the tongue (I play in sessions where this tune is played FAST -- 120 bpm plus).

I simply can't triple tongue that fast! (Probably could if I spent a lot of time practising it, but.....) On the other hand, I can do the rolls and at those sorts of speeds they come out very crisp and clean.

I consider Brian Finnegan to be among the many masters to learn from. His music is exciting, and his technique is dazzling.

I wouldn't argue with that as such. He just overdoes it for my taste, especially in his early recordings (Upstairs in a Tent, first Flook album....). He seemed to ease off on it a bit in later times, though I think I heard something recent of his (am not sure about this as I don't follow him closely because I'm not keen....) where he was back at it in full cry.

Yeah... that's it!! "Seamless and part of the whole thing!"

Indeed - that goes for application of all and any of these techniques. And therein would lie my reason for not being keen on the Finnegan way - to me it does not fit those criteria - instead it becomes the whole thing, thus detracting from the music it is built upon. I wrote before that it is not the techniques themselves that are at fault, but the way they are used. I do think they can be used in such ways as to integrate well and in his more restrained moments Brian Finnegan does that, BUT.

If an example is sought of someone who goes beyond "normal" ITM technique, borrowing from other styles and traditions, extending the range (and very influentially) in ways which do (to me) seem to integrate organically, are identifiable but not sore-thumb-like, listen to Jean-Michel Veillon. For me he is the paragon of well-considered good taste in everything he does technically and interpretatively. His flow is absolutely seamless. (I suppose this is moderately off topic in that J-M V rarely plays whistle but then, Finnegan is chiefly a flautist too - and most of the techniques apply to either instrument.)

[pancelticpiper]

What is more important is how/where tonguing is employed and I think this is really the crux of the matter when someone (usually a classically/brass band trained musician) is told that he is "tonguing too much". More often that not what is actually being said is that he/she is tonguing in a way that detracts from the rhythm/phrasing.

This hits the nail on the head. It's not how much or how little tonguing, it's whether the playing sounds idiomatic or not.
I've taught many whistle and flute workshops and it's very common for the people coming from a "legit" (classical/baroque and sometimes jazz/pop) background to tongue every note so that the music is robbed of its requisite "flow". It dawned on me that the issue was a fundamentally different approach to the meaning and purpose of individual notes. In "classical" music each note has a seperate, valued existence. Each note is carefully crafted, with much importance being placed on the attack, the "core", and the decay.
In Irish music, in general, individual notes are not regarded in this way at all but are part of an overall flow. I first learned Irish music from a low whistle player in the late 70's who did not tongue at all. Then I learned Irish flute and learned from and listened to a large number of players who either never tongued or who rarely tongued (one album, upon analysis, contained exactly ONE use of the tongue- on the entire album!)
Then I started to listen to high whistle players like Mary Bergin who tongue quite a bit. People, though, I think oftentimes miss HOW these people use tonguing, which is to, in effect, decorate and punctuate a music which still has a basic legato flow.
I recently heard a cut of a young Irish fluteplayer who does a lot of this triple-tonguing and so forth. This type of thing to me sounds utterly outside of the tradition and I hope that it's just a passing fad. I trust the overall tradition is strong enough to weather these stylistic detours.

[colomon]

Listen to Josie McDermott's playing of Denis Murphy's/John Ryan's Polkas on "Darby's Farewell" and you'll hear lots of tonguing, even triple tonguing, used for ornamentation as much (if not more) as articulation.

That was the whistle track Larsen transcribed (well, half of it anyway) from McDermott. It's amazing to look at the transcription, alas, I do not have that album. (It's been high on my list of albums to get for a couple of years now, but I never seem to get around to actually buying it.)

I did put on the Micho Russell album I have while I cooked dinner last night. Wow, does he tongue a lot -- not quite so much as that Josie McDermott track, but there are places where he plays strings of tongued notes. It's actually kind of shocking to hear after spending so much time listening to smoother modern players.

I think Eldarion's "tonguing in the wrong ways and places than actually tonguing too much" is exactly right. Those beginning whistle players who are criticized for their tonguing sound nothing at all like Micho Russell...

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Well, we have gone to all points on the compass with the question at the start of this thread, How much do you folks use tonguing as a means of articulation with your whistle?.
Personally I use very little tonguing, where as others do. I would say that the less tonguing the better, but if you must, make it fit and help the natural flow, the lilt of the music essentially.
I am not saying that the players that Eldarion mentions are not very talented, but they tongue way too much for my liking. Eldarion, I could not give you names of the session players from 25 years ago who told me it was not a good thing to tongue when playing. I only knew a few on first name terms, I would go play, then go home. Do I need to legitimise my comments by giving a 'famous' name to one of the session players?
You will just have to trust me when I say that tonguing was frowned upon where I came from.
Here is something of a side issue for me; I am a (non practising) Protestant from East Belfast, Northern Ireland. Back in the mid 70's and early 80's it was a bit (sorry, very) dangerous for me to go to the other side of the City for a session. ITM was only played in Nationalist/Republican bars and clubs and sessions were punctuated by someone joining in and singing a rebel song or two.
Being from a side of the City that looked on taditonal Irish Music as 'Catholic' music was a barrier to me learning ITM. So you can possibly understand me wanting to keep a low profile at sessions. I shudder sometimes when I think of the places and situtions I put myself in in those days.
There was a time when the Pogues were at their peak that it was risky even playing their albums. (in East Belfast)
Now that I live in Australia, (19 years) I have no problems playing the music that I love.