Anyone ever have to get over this?

[chas]

Over the years I developed the habit of tightening up the embouchure by putting a little pressure on the lower lip with my tongue. This is especially apparent in the second and third octaves. It wasn't really a problem playing the Irish style with little tonguing, mostly airstream articulation being glottals. (Note that I DIDN'T say it's not a sloppy technique and a quick fix to a problem better fixed another way.) However it's really a problem as I get further into the Baroque style. It has a lot of tonguing, plus there are various different kinds of tonguing, and some of those shouldn't interrupt the airstream that much.

So last night I decided I'd spend the next however long trying to completely divorce myself from any pressure on the lips from my tongue. I'm really having no problems up to about the second-octave G. In the first few minutes of playing. But after that I'm having an incredible time with rubberlips. If anyone has gotten back into biking after many years off and overdone it, it's just like the rubberlegs you get from that. I'm discovering muscles I never knew I had, or at least never knew I needed.

It's frustrating, but at least I know I have those muscles, and they can be built up just as any other muscles can.

So, anybody else ever begin playing that way and have to re-program?

[Cork]

Over the years I developed the habit of tightening up the embouchure by putting a little pressure on the lower lip with my tongue. This is especially apparent in the second and third octaves. It wasn't really a problem playing the Irish style with little tonguing, mostly airstream articulation being glottals. (Note that I DIDN'T say it's not a sloppy technique and a quick fix to a problem better fixed another way.) However it's really a problem as I get further into the Baroque style. It has a lot of tonguing, plus there are various different kinds of tonguing, and some of those shouldn't interrupt the airstream that much.

So last night I decided I'd spend the next however long trying to completely divorce myself from any pressure on the lips from my tongue. I'm really having no problems up to about the second-octave G. In the first few minutes of playing. But after that I'm having an incredible time with rubberlips. If anyone has gotten back into biking after many years off and overdone it, it's just like the rubberlegs you get from that. I'm discovering muscles I never knew I had, or at least never knew I needed.

It's frustrating, but at least I know I have those muscles, and they can be built up just as any other muscles can.

So, anybody else ever begin playing that way and have to re-program?

First, welcome to the Baroque world, which really is not so far removed from ITM. The flutes used in ITM are quite similar to those of the Baroque era, long story short, and many, but not all, of the articulation techniques are similar.

Your use of the tongue, as described, however, is technically wrong, please. One's tongue has nothing to do with embouchure. The tongue is, in the Baroque style, however, very important in regard to articulation, where staccato and legato are two different things. Staccato is relatively rare in ITM.

Rubber lips, maybe including some swelling of the lips? Oh, yeah, that can happen, but only in the early stages. Given regular practise over time, you will gain the required strength, and the rubber effect will vanish. This is normal.

Edit: There is an old piece of flute playing advise, to not play through pain, yet here I have said that some swelling of the lips could be normal. It's not that I am trying to speak out of both sides of my mouth, for any pain in wrists, hands and/or fingers should indeed not be ignored, but, in all honesty, I have yet to meet a flute player who has not gone through some degree of lip swelling. So, when you notice some swelling of the lips, take a break. It takes time, and regular practise, to gain the lip strenght required, but some degree of lip swelling appears to be a normal part of the process. It likely has to do with the flute being so much fun to play, that it's hard to muster the discipline required to put the flute down, and take a break.

:-)

[daiv]

try working on your frowning. when you dont have your flute, try and see how long you can frown. those are muscles that you will need for your new (proper) embouchure. i dont play baroque flute, but when you put your irish flute up to your mouth, start off frowning. put it up to your face while frowning, then pout your lips forward to meet the flute. it makes all the difference in the world!

the pouty, frowny thing is always considered a modern technique, but if you read charles nicholson's ideas on embouchure, its exactly the same thing. the only difference is that he adds a third variable to the mix, of the flute pressure against the face. charles nicholson was a strong proponent of the tones that we like to get out of our irish flutes (in fact, he was so loud and "barky" that the boehm flute was invented), so i think it's a good idea to listen to him!

good luck with it, and let us know how it progresses.

[chas]

Thanks for the tips. Seems as though my primary problem is I'm not pushing the lower lip out enough. Apparently the tongue was doing that, so I have to pay attention to the lip doing it on its own.

[jemtheflute]

Lower lip isn't supposed to be "pushed out"! Sorry, no time to write more right now, but I honestly don't really understand a) what you've been doing or b) the problem as such. Can you post some pics of what you've been doing and what you are trying to do now?

[peeplj]

If you are having trouble playing without supporting the lower lip with the tongue, I would suggest you try pushing the jaw forward a bit.

You may also have to change the amount you roll in to make this work, as the angle of the air will be a bit different.

--James

[flutefry]

I agree with James and with Daiv. An image that works for me is that the skin below the lower lip doesn't need support, as it is trapped between the flute being pushed inward by the first joint of the left finger, and the jaw being firm. This leaves the darker part of the lip to shape the sound. Then you can use a combination of moving the jaw forward or changing the position of darker part of the lip (or both) to adjust the direction of the airflow if you wish.

Having said that, for me, my lower lip is much less mobile than my upper lip when I am playing (cuz it's trapped between flute and jaw), and most of the embouchure adjustment and support comes from the corners of my upper lip, so that the centre of my upper an lower lips is still flexible.

Hugh

[Cork]

Thanks for the tips. Seems as though my primary problem is I'm not pushing the lower lip out enough. Apparently the tongue was doing that, so I have to pay attention to the lip doing it on its own.

Instead of "pushing" the lower lip out enough, try this approach. For instance, when I put the head joint up to my face, the first thing I do is to get my lower lip just where it needs to be, relative to the embouchure hole (Edit note, I use both lips, with the upper lip just momentarily touching the outer flute embouchure edge, to get the lower lip into place.). Once that gets done, the next thing is to "wrap" the lower lip around the head joint, or the lip plate, such that the head joint is rested against my chin AND the lower lip remains just where it should be, as above.

Edit: The above is the slow motion description. In time and given regular practise, however, matching embouchure to embouchure can be done very quickly.

Feel free to experiment, to find just what embouchure position works best for you. After all, no two human embouchures are quite the same, and yours is uniquely yours.

[daiv]

Thanks for the tips. Seems as though my primary problem is I'm not pushing the lower lip out enough. Apparently the tongue was doing that, so I have to pay attention to the lip doing it on its own.

Instead of "pushing" the lower lip out enough, try this approach. For instance, when I put the head joint up to my face, the first thing I do is to get my lower lip just where it needs to be, relative to the embouchure hole. Once that gets done, the next thing is to "wrap" the lower lip around the head joint, or the lip plate, such that the head joint is rested against my chin AND the lower lip remains just where it should be, as above.

Feel free to experiment, to find just what embouchure position works best for you. After all, no two human embouchures are quite the same, and yours is uniquely yours.

cork's got it exactly right. frown, and then pout (wrap). it helps to visualize a boehm headjoint. imagine (or take one, if you got it) a boehm headjoint with a riser. first you frown, and then you push your lower lip up to the flute to hug the riser. all the movement should then be from the corner of your lips. your flute should jump the octave from the low D to the high d just with the lifting of your first finger, no embouchure change needed. if you can get that, then you're on your way.

[Meadhbh]

Hi Chas,

From time to time I find myself supporting my bottom lip with my tongue. I have known of a few Boehm players that have had to change this technique too. They always had the sweetest and purest tone, but had problems with flexibility and getting a lot of depth in their sound (and generally their tonguing was "fluffy"). I still occasionally fall into the old habit. Cork and daiv have given excellent suggestions and descriptions for placement...much like what I try to remind myself. I have also found that just by dropping my jaw the corners of my mouth tend to go down naturally. This also makes the tongue drop back and away from your lower lip.