Ornamentation question

[pancelticpiper]

Perhaps the fluttery triplet being referred to is Matt Molloy's distinctive B-C-D triplet. Traditionally on flute and whistle this triplet was done open and legato, the C being a C sharp regardless of the tune's key signature. Listen to the playing of Mary Bergin (and really most any older flute or whistle player) to hear it in action. It could be diagrammed:
xoo ooo
ooo ooo
oxx xxx (or xxx xxx).
On the pipes, this triplet is also done with a C sharp, but normally done staccato:
x xoo xxxx
x oxx xxxx
o xxx xxxx
with the chanter momentarily closed between each note, thus the staccato.
Matt Molloy, I suspect, was trying to find a way to suggest the staccato sound without tounging, and came up with:
xoo ooo
xxx xxx
oxx ooo
oxx xxx
the G being a very very short blip between the B and the C, not long enough to disturb the effect of the triplet being B-C-D. Note that Molloy's triplet uses a C natural rather than a C sharp.
I'm crediting Molloy with inventing this only because he's the first person I'd heard do it- perhaps others did it earlier but just didn't get recorded and spread around.
In analogy with this, I came up with a way to imitate the pipe's rising F sharp-G-A triplet on the flute. Once again, traditionally this was done legato on flute and whistle but staccato on pipes. My thing:
xxx xox
xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxx xxx
xxo oox
where the F sharp, G, and A have bottom D's in between. Actually, as in the B-C-D triplet, it's really only necessary to have the blip in between the first two notes of the triplet, so often it really comes out:
xxx xox
xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxo oox
Anyhow the quasi-staccato B-C-D triplet, crans on low and middle D, and trills on F sharp are the distinctive hallmarks of Molloy's style and all but crans on middle D are inspired by the pipes.

[sbfluter]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I'll bet that is indeed what I'm hearing. It's not a Grey Larsen "it must have no pitch" articulation, but an honest-to-goodness decorative effect. To be fair, I believe Grey mentions these as well, but he still hammers home the "it must have no pitch" message.

[jim stone]

Back to ornaments:

Here's how brad Hurley does a roll on low E.

XXX XX0

X00 XX0

XXX XX0

XXX XXX

XXX XX0

[cocusflute]

I think what Grey meant was that the ornamental notes (not the note ornamented) shouldn't have a pitch you can identify as particular notes. The tap isn't held long enough to be identified as a note. It is a rhythmic "blip." It will have a pitch, but if you can identify it as such then you're probably holding it too long.

Oftentimes when describing a particular musical event, the right hemisphere of the brain - that thinks in pictures - is overshadowed by the left hemisphere, that thinks in words. It's better to hear the ornament (or to be shown) and then to try to reproduce it from dots or abc's. But if this is the only way of learning I suppose it's better than nothing. Too often people play stiffly rather than fluidly, which I think comes from trying too hard to play the way they think they should be playing (by the book), rather than by following one's instincts.

The psychologist, Jonathan Schooler, says: "When you start becoming reflective about the process, it undermines your ability. You lose the flow. There are certain kinds of experience that are vulnerable to this process." I think ITM is this kind of experience.

[jim stone]

That sounds rt.

Here's a cran on low D.

XXX XXX

X00 XXX

XXX XXX

XXX XX0

XXX XXX

[Gordon]

I think Gray is being held accountable for language used to convey something that must be heard and felt, which - as John said - is the only way to really learn this stuff. Gray was (I believe) trying to describe the fact that - played correctly - a roll sounds more like a drum roll on the root note than a wavy roll on the upper and lower cut/tap notes. However, there are many ways to play about with a roll, once you know how to do one right, that make this hard/fast rule not so hard and fast. Sometimes the cut note, or the tapped note, is brought out for melodic purposes, and there are also ways to add melody where a roll might otherwise be used, a triplet s or a slur... In other words, the melody and rhythm are of paramount importance because the use of ornaments are selective, not mandatory in any fixed spot. So if you don't really hear the basic tune in your head, ornaments are just clutter you're trying to learn that are not actually part of the melody.
This stuff is hardly a secret, but it is harder to describe in words, in a book, because it's less a technique than liberties taken once you understand the form. There are techniques you can learn and use, and then there's playing about within the style. Like everything else, you have to absorb the music. Learn tunes, learn all the techniques, and then forget the rules and play the tunes.

[pancelticpiper]

So Brad Hurley raises two fingers at the same instant to create a cut? I've never seen anyone do that on pipes, flute, or whistle.
A caution to beginners not to think that that is a normal or suggested way of doing cuts.

[sbfluter]

Does anyone have the CD titled Musical Travel Ireland? (It's one that got me started in all this. I've had it for about 10 years or so.)

If you do, there's a track called Boys of the Lough - Touch Me If You Dare (The Laurel Tree). I think most of what the flute player is doing on Boys of the Lough can be described as the ordinary ornaments, but in the second tune (which I believe is this one http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/596 ), in the A part, I think where it goes up to the G note, the flute player does these, I guess maybe triplets? I don't know, but he (or she?) runs up the scale with a flourish and emphasizes the G and I don't think he plays the note after that but leaves the G emphasized.

In the B part of that tune I can hear the fiddler playing the tune a little more straight while the flute player is breathing after every high B, with a flourish of course. Leaving that high B to ring out and be emphasized.

These are the kinds of things I was trying to bring up. These kinds of flourishes. I think these things, whatever they are, are what the flute uniquely provides to the music that the other instruments do not.

[Cork]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I'll bet that is indeed what I'm hearing. It's not a Grey Larsen "it must have no pitch" articulation, but an honest-to-goodness decorative effect. To be fair, I believe Grey mentions these as well, but he still hammers home the "it must have no pitch" message.

I got Grey's book a few months ago, and have spent some time at going through it. And, on the one hand, I have much appreciation for what he has compiled, in that I did learn a thing or more, with my thanks to Grey. Yet, although I certainly do recommend his book to anybody interested in ITM, he at times does become pedantic, at teaching, and although I do see him as a fine teacher, perhaps his approach could at times become somewhat, er, dry.

And while I can easily understand his saying so, I frankly do object to his saying that there could be an effective limit on the C# cut (on a D flute).

Good observation, sbfluter!

Edit: On second thought, perhaps his saying that certain ornaments must have no pitch could well illustrate the relative speed at which those ornaments are commonly played. That is, other music forms can employ ornaments which are played more slowly, to the point where the individual tones of the ornaments can be more easily heard. So, just to get the point across that some ITM ornamentation can be very fast, perhaps at times more as a percussive effect than as a tonal effect, GL seems to have done well in his choice of words, to get the idea across in plain language.

[Gordon]

If you do, there's a track called Boys of the Lough - Touch Me If You Dare (The Laurel Tree). I think most of what the flute player is doing on Boys of the Lough can be described as the ordinary ornaments, but in the second tune (which I believe is this one http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/596 ), in the A part, I think where it goes up to the G note, the flute player does these, I guess maybe triplets? I don't know, but he (or she?) runs up the scale with a flourish and emphasizes the G and I don't think he plays the note after that but leaves the G emphasized....
These are the kinds of things I was trying to bring up. These kinds of flourishes. I think these things, whatever they are, are what the flute uniquely provides to the music that the other instruments do not.

The decidedly 'he' flute player in Boys of the Lough on those tracks is Cathal McConnell - one of the best fluters in the business. Also a very inventive one; knows the tradition and how to break it all at one elegant time. Great player, and a really nice guy; he crashed at a friend of mine's house in NYC about 10 years ago, and sat in on a band rehearsal, politely noodling behind us (if playing great on the fly can be called noodling). That said, he's a tough one to imitate, stylistically speaking, because he does precisely what you're asking about - knows a tune inside and out, then plays all around it. He tried to show me and a small group of bewildered onlookers how to do this . I'd probably follow him better now, but at the time, I was just learning how to play the tunes.

[BrendanB]

If you do, there's a track called Boys of the Lough - Touch Me If You Dare (The Laurel Tree). I think most of what the flute player is doing on Boys of the Lough can be described as the ordinary ornaments, but in the second tune (which I believe is this one http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/596 ), in the A part, I think where it goes up to the G note, the flute player does these, I guess maybe triplets? I don't know, but he (or she?) runs up the scale with a flourish and emphasizes the G and I don't think he plays the note after that but leaves the G emphasized.

Diane,

Is this the recording you are talking about, http://msikio.online.fr/Silex/index.htm ?? If so, it's actually Kevin Crawford playing flute on that track along with James Cullinane, who's a great fiddle player.

The confusion is understanable though, since Boys of the Lough is not only a tune, it's also a band, headed by Cathal McConnell, the great flute player from Fermanagh mentioned earlier.

I couldn't get the clip on the website to play on my computer, so I can't help you on what Kevin's doing specifically there on that particular tune. That said, your phrasing and the choices you make about where to put emphasis are just as important as rolls. Personally, I would say it's more important. You can have amazing technique and still not have any music in your playing. Like I mentioned before, if you are interesting in exploring phrasing, check out some of the albums and players I listed.

Brendan

[Tootler]

The decidedly 'he' flute player in Boys of the Lough ... is Cathal McConnell - one of the best fluters in the business. Also a very inventive one; knows the tradition and how to break it all at one elegant time. Great player, and a really nice guy; he crashed at a friend of mine's house in NYC about 10 years ago, and sat in on a band rehearsal, politely noodling behind us (if playing great on the fly can be called noodling). That said, he's a tough one to imitate, stylistically speaking, because he does precisely what you're asking about - knows a tune inside and out, then plays all around it. He tried to show me and a small group of bewildered onlookers how to do this . I'd probably follow him better now, but at the time, I was just learning how to play the tunes.

I went to a workshop with Cathal McConnel about three years ago. Great player, great character and very willing to share his knowledge. Like you I did not benefit as much as I might have done as I was struggling with whistle at the time and just playing the tunes was an achievement. I still have the recordings I made that day and rough as they are, the quality of his playing shines through. One thing I noticed is that the ornamentation definitely enhances the tune and never takes over. The rhythm and tune come through very clearly. He played some tunes slowly for learning and in those he is more restrained with ornamentation.

The Boys of the Lough were in concert that evening and it was a great evening. They are all fine musicians and their ability to blend the different styles of the music of their various origins was superb.

Geoff

[Tootler]

The decidedly 'he' flute player in Boys of the Lough ... is Cathal McConnell - one of the best fluters in the business. Also a very inventive one; knows the tradition and how to break it all at one elegant time. Great player, and a really nice guy; he crashed at a friend of mine's house in NYC about 10 years ago, and sat in on a band rehearsal, politely noodling behind us (if playing great on the fly can be called noodling). That said, he's a tough one to imitate, stylistically speaking, because he does precisely what you're asking about - knows a tune inside and out, then plays all around it. He tried to show me and a small group of bewildered onlookers how to do this . I'd probably follow him better now, but at the time, I was just learning how to play the tunes.

I went to a workshop with Cathal McConnell about three years ago. Great player, great character and very willing to share his knowledge. Like you I did not benefit as much as I might have done as I was struggling with whistle at the time and just playing the tunes was an achievement. I still have the recordings I made that day and rough as they are, the quality of his playing shines through. One thing I noticed is that the ornamentation definitely enhances the tune and never takes over. The rhythm and tune come through very clearly. He played some tunes slowly for learning and in those he is more restrained with ornamentation.

The Boys of the Lough were in concert that evening and it was a great evening. They are all fine musicians and their ability to blend the different styles of the music of their various origins was superb.

Geoff

[sbfluter]

I couldn't play the clip but that is definitely the album. It's great, isn't it? I've listened to it all the years I've had it and there's always more to hear.

Sorry it took me 3 pages to adequately figure out a way to describe what I'm talking about. It's that flourish. I love that. You don't even have to be so fancy. Even June McCormack's slow-played tutorials have a little of that essence within.

[pancelticpiper]

Please let us know if that clip is posted anywhere, because I'd like to hear what ornament or whatever you are talking about. I'm pretty sure that I will know what it is as soon as I hear it.