Ornamentation question

[sbfluter]

Sorry for yet another topic about this.

I have downloaded lots of flute clips now. I also have Grey Larsen's book. He tries to hammer home that things like cuts and rolls are articulations, that you shouldn't hear any actual notes. Just blips.

Well, I hear lots of actual notes in these flute clips. What are y'all doing?

[Gabriel]

Obviously we're not doing it right.

I personally struggle with left hand rolls as my fingers aren't fast enough on the left hand. That's why one can here actual notes in my playing at those spots. But I'm working on it, A rolls already work without my dirty little trick.

[jemtheflute]

Notes? Who? Me? Nah - just your imagination. Never touch the things......

I should borrow Arbo's moniker and claim "I'm Not Irish"!

You have to be able to hear them or they wouldn't be there!

Haven't seen Larsen's book so can't comment properly informed, but maybe I'd phrase a similar intent in a different way to that you report, Diane. Cuts and taps are not, for the most part, notes in the melody as such. They are not pitch-specific other than that they are respectively above or below the note they articulate. The point is the break in the main note. The sounds produced by correctly executed cuts and taps are, of course, "notes" in the general musical sense that they have pitch and duration, but they are not usually required to be at any particular in-tune pitch in the scale or key you are playing in. When you cut, say, an E by lifting L3, you are not playing an A, although that is what grace-note you would write in in classical notation. Pitch-wise that cut will produce a very short, flat A, but that fact is not significant in terms of the function of the ornament. Cutting with R1 will serve just as well, producing a flat G note if anyone cares. By definiton because of the physics/mechanics involved, taps are very nearly always the neighbouring note below the one being ornamented, and will sound at nominal pitch for that fingering, but again, that is not terribly relevant to their function.

I think something like that is what Grey Larsen must have been trying to express.

That's the theory. In practice, it can sometimes matter what pitch you cut to, I think. For example, you can produce subtle variation by cutting the same note with different fingers in a sequence of cuts. A cran is a sequence of cuts to different higher-but-not-accurately-pitched "notes" - the cuts chosen and the sequence of them will affect the "flavour" of the cran - there was a thread about this a while back..... Also, in tunes in some tonalities/modes, certain cuts will sound odd: - in The Contradiction Reel, to pick on a recently discussed tune, in the 4th section there is a figure cef#e where one would naturally cut the f# - if you do so with R1 it works OK, but do it with L3 and you get a cut which is between A and G# in pitch, which sits more comfortably in the tonality of the piece than the flat Gnat you get with a R1 cut. The difference is noticeable, though you wouldn't actually object to either, theoretically, aesthetically or functionally - especially if like Arbo you were going for using some G naturals anyway despite the key-signature.

FWIW, I also think that the distinction between ITM "ornamentation as articulation" and "classical ornamentation" is not quite so clear-cut as some would like to make out - there certainly are differences, but equally there are overlaps.

You might also like to consider the probability that none of us here are any damn good - we aren't up to doing it "properly"! Probably wouldn't be here if we were......

[johnkerr]

I just looked up the word 'articulation' on dictionary.com. Guess what? It's defined by using another form of the word, namely 'articulate'. That tells us a lot, doesn't it? So what does Grey Larsen mean when he says that cuts and rolls are articulations, and you shouldn't hear any actual notes, just blips? Hell if I know, but if that's really what he says he's full of it. You certainly hear a note rather than just blips when you play a roll. You hear the note that you're rolling. The cut and the tap that are part of the roll need to be played very shortly and crisply, so one could argue that they are just blips rather than actual notes. Again, it depends on how one defines the word 'note'. Is a note something that has both a pitch and a time value, or can it just have a pitch and be a note? A blip, I suppose, is a sound without a time value, but it can have a discernable pitch or it can't, it really makes no difference. It just needs to be played so shortly and crisply that it sounds as a blip.

Here's an example. Say you're rolling a G (fingered xxx ooo). If you cut with the third finger of your top hand, your blip will have a pitch, namely A (fingered xxo ooo). If you cut with either the first or second finger of your top hand (fingering either xox ooo or oxx ooo), your blip will not have a pitch, at least in terms of the twelve-tone system anyway. But either way, the blip needs to be so short that the fact of it having a pitch or not doesn't matter, because it goes by so quickly that the listener will never know unless they were to record it and slow it way down to listen to it.

What I'm sure Larsen means by whatever he says is that when playing a roll, which is done note-cut-note-tap-note, if your cut and tap are too long and sound as actual notes with a time value and pitch of their own, rather than as blips of no discernible time value and no discernable pitch, then you're doing it wrong. Similarly, if you cut a note and your cut has a discernable pitch and time value, you're doing it wrong.

Who was it that said "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture"? They may have been on to something there.

[jim stone]

Maybe it would help to quote Grey, in fact.

This may be off topic, maybe not.

What Grey did emphasize at workshops (nothing about
not hearing notes) was that ornaments are typcially
attacks on notes, ways of emphasizing particular
notes. So they need to be clustered tightly
around the note in question.

So, when we went around and played a tune for him,
he said my rolls were too 'loose' or spread out
around the note.

I don't believe this is always true, that ornaments
are always ways of attacking a note, but
often that's what's happening and here
his advice seems to help.

Somebody once related how her teacher told
her that cuts should be quick enough to sound
like barking dogs. I was listening to a super
whistle player in Bloomington who makes
her cuts chirp.

[sbfluter]

I guess I was not clear. I completely understand what Grey Larsen is saying.

What I am saying is that I hear pitched notes, on purpose, not articulations, not sloppiness, but lots of extra, deliberate, pretty notes.

[colomon]

I have downloaded lots of flute clips now. I also have Grey Larsen's book. He tries to hammer home that things like cuts and rolls are articulations, that you shouldn't hear any actual notes. Just blips.

Well, I hear lots of actual notes in these flute clips. What are y'all doing?

One of my bugaboos has been long rolls on the offbeat in reels, so that the pattern for a beat is eighth note followed by a long roll. (I'm following Grey's terminology here, but that has also been a source of contentious on-line debate in this area.) I have observed that a lot of great flute players will frequently lengthen the tap of the offbeat roll so that it in effect becomes a real note. Instead of eighth cut eighth tap eighth, it's eighth cut triplet eighths with the middle triplet a step below the other two. Fiddlers also seem do this, or sometimes do it without lowering the middle triplet, so the effect is four notes of the same pitch in a row instead of three.

I know I'm hearing this on recordings, and I'm pretty sure my sometimes teacher has told me to play this way. But I've never seen a whistle/flute book or on-line information source describe this, and my attempts to bring it up in on-line discussions have invariably resulted in frustration and the distinct impression I am bring mocked.

[BrendanB]

I guess I was not clear. I completely understand what Grey Larsen is saying.

What I am saying is that I hear pitched notes, on purpose, not articulations, not sloppiness, but lots of extra, deliberate, pretty notes.

Are you asking about rolls and cuts or about ornamentation in general? If its the former, I think you have gotten some good responses already, but basically the cuts and taps that make up a roll should be quick and like little blips. That's why it really doesn't matter for instance if you play a G roll with a cut using your LH1, 2, or 3rd finger.

If you are asking about the latter, that's a broader discussion. Ornamenting the basic melody line with additional notes is the fundamental basis for a lot of variation. Personally, I think there is a perception amongst people starting to play the flute that the only way you can ornament is based on rolls, cuts, taps, crans, etc. If you listen to a lot of older players, as well as fiddle players, box players, etc., you'll notice that they tend to ornament using a string of notes versus an 'ornament' like a roll. While most good players do this, take a listen to someone like Paddy Carty, Harry Bradley, or Peadar O'Loughlin to get a sense of what you can do on the flute without really using a lot of rolls. All of them have very different flute styles, but they use rolls and such a lot more sparingly than someone like Matt Molloy or Kevin Crawford. This isn't to say that one way of doing it is better than the other, just a different approach.

Hope this helps and isn't completely off base from what you were asking.

B

[Cubitt]

What you are hearing are grace notes. A grace note is a quick lead-in note that "borrows" part of the value of the primary note being played. It is term not often spoken of in Irish music. Actually, rolls and crans are grace notes, although, as I said, that term is not generally used. They are extra notes played as part of the primary notes. Where you don't want a note value is in the finger articulation that allows you to play the grace notes. In other words, you do get extra notes in Irish ornamentation, but it is a product of the note being played, not the finger movement that gets you there.

[sbfluter]

If you are asking about the latter, that's a broader discussion. Ornamenting the basic melody line with additional notes is the fundamental basis for a lot of variation. Personally, I think there is a perception amongst people starting to play the flute that the only way you can ornament is based on rolls, cuts, taps, crans, etc. If you listen to a lot of older players, as well as fiddle players, box players, etc., you'll notice that they tend to ornament using a string of notes versus an 'ornament' like a roll. While most good players do this, take a listen to someone like Paddy Carty, Harry Bradley, or Peadar O'Loughlin to get a sense of what you can do on the flute without really using a lot of rolls. All of them have very different flute styles, but they use rolls and such a lot more sparingly than someone like Matt Molloy or Kevin Crawford. This isn't to say that one way of doing it is better than the other, just a different approach.

Yes, this is what I was asking about. It's like a world of 'secret' ornamentation nobody ever discusses.

It can include things like, I guess, triplets. Then there are the runs up the scale or the popping into the upper ocatave just for fun, or twiddling a high note over the melody, or a low one, or popping to the lower octave just for fun, and yes even the ordinary roll but with a more fluttery sound. I don't hear this on other instruments so much as on the flute, but maybe because I listen harder to the flutes than the others.

Anyway, not sure of my question, but you have confirmed my suspicion of a secret world of ornamentation, in the classic sense, that nobody ever actually speaks of out loud. The unspoken ornamentation.

[Cubitt]

What you are hearing are grace notes. A grace note is a quick lead-in note that "borrows" part of the value of the primary note being played. It is term not often spoken of in Irish music. Actually, rolls and crans are grace notes, although, as I said, that term is not generally used.

They are very definitely not grace notes. What you're talking about is technically called an acciaccatura -- but while that is as fast as possible, it is still pitched. As Larsen correctly states, a cut is an articulation. If you're looking for a classical equivalent, it is much more like tonguing a note than it is like a playing an acciaccatura.

That said, it's hard to have a clue what sbfluter is talking about without an actual sound sample.

I wasn't talking about cuts. I realize that one uses a cut as part of a roll or cran, but a cut taken alone has not pitch value, whereas the cut gets you to the grace notes used within a cran. Even your attached definition of an acciaccatura uses the term (and shows graphically) grace notes. Any combination of notes sounded within the time value of a melody note qualifies as grace notes, as far as I know.

[chas]

A couple of points from my own experience (FWIW). I was never satisfied with my rolls and cuts till I started recording myself. They were MUCH more crisp on tape than they were hearing them from my whistle or flute. (OTOH, they were a little sloppier rhythmically.)

Then, given how much I had worked on making the cuts and taps almost indecipherable -- my first lesson with Chris Norman he had me slow the articulations down. He said something to the effect, "I want to be able to HEAR the notes." I should also point out that he can most definitely hear things you or I can't hear, so probably 99+ percent of the population still couldn't have heard those notes. At the end of that lesson I could hear them in my playing, but I couldn't hear them when I played the recording back.

I still can't do B rolls worth crap. Grace notes in Baroque music still don't make sense to me either, but that's a whole nother bellyache.

[jim stone]

To continue along the line of the original misunderstood
question--

I agree that the ornaments are heard as blips, more or less,
however I do think the note you cut on, say,
makes a difference as to how the ornament sounds.
A more (or less) dramatic or contrastive blip.

So Grey wants us to cut immediately above the
note sounding. I prefer to cut well above that,
as long as the flute responds quickly.
I err on the side of contrast.

[BrendanB]

Anyway, not sure of my question, but you have confirmed my suspicion of a secret world of ornamentation, in the classic sense, that nobody ever actually speaks of out loud. The unspoken ornamentation.

You're right, while there isn't a specific question to ask, it's definitely an important part of the music to recognize and hear. To me, it's what makes traditional irish music special. You can take what's often times a very simple melody and hear almost infinite variations on it depending on the style of the player. This is why it is so important to learn music by ear and not rely on written music, since you start developing your ear to hear the nuance and different variations.

My suggestion is to start listening to a lot of recordings, if you aren't already. One album that jumps to my mind is the James Kelly/Paddy O'Brien/Daithi Sproule recordings. The settings are really inventive and the variations are very melodic. Another thing to try is listening to the same tune played by different musicians with unique styles and figure out what makes them unique and different from each other.

B

[Guinness]

What are y'all doing?

Embellishing -- blips, accents, minute rests, dynamics, extra notes, melodic variations, etc., etc.. The nomenclature is useful but really you want a crystal clear mental image (sound) of what these embellishments should sound like, their rhythm, and where to put them. A clear picture makes it considerably easier to imitate. Slow down software is invaluable to deciphering these "secrets".