Irish Grip

[boyd]

His flute is backwards. I suggest he turn it the proper way. I also read that real musicians don't need to tap their feet or move around like that. He should sit still.

(I'm kidding doncha know?)

[jemtheflute]

Not only is his flute backwards etc. but he props the head end on his shoulder, thus risking cricking his neck and constricting his breathing!!!!! Oh dear! Tut tut! And he gets paid (lots) to do it too .

BTW, the whistler is an old pal of Mike's, Grace Kelly from Manchester, sister of Jon Joe Kelly the bodhran player (not him in the vid - I don't know who that is). She leads a regular Wednesday night session in The Union pub in Levenshulme, Manchester which is very high standard but friendly and welcoming. Well worth a visit if one is in the area! I go up to it now and then. (It's about 50 miles/an hour's drive for me - which is a significant journey by British standards!) Grace plays a Fred Rose whistle, I seem to recall - superb, anyway - and is also an excellent fiddler. (Don't these multi-instrumentalists make you sick?) Mr McGoldrick turns up to the sesh himself occasionally, I'm told, though I haven't been there myself on such a night.

EDIT - correction - I saw Grace at her Manchester session last night (1:11:07) - her black whistle in these videos with Mike McGoldrick is an Abell and she also has a/some Burke whistles. It was another player at the same session who had a Rose which looks very similar - and sounds superb too. I misremembered. Apologies.

[cocusflute]

June Ni Chormaic's Bent Wrist

Just to settle the issue of straight vs. bent wrist.... Or is the quality of the music irrelevant?

[crookedtune]

Wonderful! One more reason to put up with Cocus's bit of attitude. (He's usually right).

[sbfluter]

June Ni Chormaic's Bent Wrist

Ouch!

I suppose her wrist would be irrelevant if I hadn't seen a picture elsewhere of her with a wrist brace on. Her wrist certainly is irrelevant to the quality of her music, but I'm sure she finds it quite relevant later when she's icing it.

[Guinness]

There are two separate issues at hand:

Does wrist position affect the quality of music? No, unless perhaps the position obfuscates the execution of certain movements (such as rolls) OR the position causes significant pain. Even then, plenty of folks can do amazing things while experiencing considerable pain.

Will a chronically contorted wrist, even in the absence of acute pain, result in some form of injury? One would think so but this is for a competent ergonomist to answer, hopefully with a long term flute study to support his opinion. We haven't had one speak up and so the argument is far from over.

[Rob Sharer]

Which brings me back to one of the main reasons I started this thread...

In previous airings of this topic, there seemed to be an assumption on the part of some participants that any grip other than the standard had to put undue strain on the wrist. The argument tended to run along the lines of, "200 years of classical flutistry has scientifically perfected the standard grip; anything else will induce faulty geometry/strain/tensions/moral turpitude."

My video was intended to show that some of us with alternate ways of holding the flute do manage to do so without any strain on the wrists, or increased tension (note I said "some;" it's no guarantee, but then neither is the standard grip). I hope that this and other videos displayed here have put paid to the notion that the Irish way of holding the flute is, by its very nature, deficient or wrong. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

My video was intended to show that some of us with alternate ways of holding the flute do manage to do so without any strain on the wrists, or increased tension (note I said "some;" it's no guarantee, but then neither is the standard grip). I hope that this and other videos displayed here have put paid to the notion that the Irish way of holding the flute is, by its very nature, deficient or wrong.

Rob, your video of yourself certainly demonstrated to me the truth of what you maintain about your hold - in your own case at least, and I could actually try it myself, as I said before, and see that it can work - which I had not been able to ascertain before seeing how you do it.

I haven't been able to get the June Ni Chormaich video link to work, so I haven't watched it, but from what I have read previously of her injury problem, I would at least partially concede that "standard hold" may entail difficulties for some folk, though I still wonder whether those problems are not caused by them not actually having got their own use of the technique properly tailored to their physique. I don't do it perfectly myself and sometimes get stresses that I soon realise are down to such faults. When I apply the principles (applicable to any style of hold) for finding out why I'm straining and changing what I do to eradicate it, I have always managed to do so.

Setting aside any argument about the pros and cons of any particular method of holding the flute, I do quibble with your attempt to establish the term "Irish Hold" as describing what you do! I said before that I don't think mentioning "pipers' hold" helps anyone to visualise what you do - on the contrary. But I question how you can claim it is "Irish" to do what you do. I can't think of any other Irish (national origin or choice of musical involvement) flute player I have seen who does exactly what you do. (Doubtless you can quote some?) McGoldrick's hands are somewhat similar to yours, but he rests the head end on his shoulder constantly, so his top thumb and forefinger are free. The vast majority in my experience use something near "standard/classical/Rockstro", (even those who rest the head on their shoulder!) so statistically that would better qualify as "Irish"! Of those who use other holds, most that I have seen do use something like a "piper's hold" with fingers lapped across the tube, often similar to the Bansuri style we had illustrated up-thread, with L thumb stuck out towards the embouchure and further up the side of the tube than yours. (I suggest, if we are seeking [some chance!] to establish a new set of terminology, that "bansuri hold" would be best suited for that style.) The nearest I have seen to your hold (twice, that I can recall) is people who collapse the L forefinger so they are either pinching the tube between it and the thumb or are using the second knuckle, pressed against the tube-side, to provide inward pressure - in either case making free use of L1 very awkward and probably inducing injurious stress in that finger.

You have demonstrated well your argument in favour of your hold being practical/able and non-injurious either to performance or body, that it is worth sensible consideration in an individual's search for what may suit them best; but I really don't see what is "Irish" about it!

[sbfluter]

After seeing June's clip I looked at myself in the mirror and saw to my horror my own left wrist is almost as bent. Not quite, but then I'm much fleshier than her so maybe it just looks less bent.

So I tried to figure out how on earth I could straighten it. The only way is to hold the flute more like the Indian guys hold their bansuris, but if you held a keyed flute like that, you would not be able to use your thumb.

In any case, I do not feel any strain on my left wrist at all.

I cannot do what Rob can do no matter how hard I try. That does make my left wrist hurt and it also turns my fingers on their sides so that I'm not able to close the holes.

Just for fun I tried playing my flute left-handed. I could only do it if I rested the flute on my shoulder.

[jim stone]

It's possible to straighten your wrist using classical grip.
You hold the flute, look in the mirror, and simply
adjust your wrist so that it is more straight.
The position of your left hand fingers will change,
there will be more a stretch. This can seem
awkward at first but one gets used to it.

Your wrist doesn't need to be perfectly straight,
just a more neutral position.

I did this at the advice of Brad Hurley,
who is a respected teacher, when I started
developing wrist problems. He had trained
himself accordingly because he had seen
a number of bent-wrist flautists develop carpal tunnel
and other problems.

As to whether it's worth doing, probably one
won't get into trouble if one doesn't but the
common wisdom among orthopaedists
and people counseling those who use
keyboards is that a more neutral position
minimizes risks. That one doesn't feel
strain is no indicator of what will
happen in three years.

One has to keep reminding oneself to keep the
wrist straight, as the quite-bent position initially
feels more natural and comfortable and it
makes it easier to cover the holes.

By the way, this should be doable on your
CB flutes.

[Rob Sharer]

Jem, my main concern regarding terminology is that people stop using the phrase "piper's grip" to refer to anything other than the classical hold. Now, with regards to what term should replace it, I base my argument for the term "Irish grip" (or hold) on the fact that so many players in Ireland do it this way. I'm not just referring to the big-name players, either (surely it is one of the tragedies attendant to the rise in popularity of Irish music that certain parts of the Irish "elephant" keep getting mistaken for the whole by the peur aul' supplicants surfing the web).

Ireland is full of flute-players. Fairly seething with them, it is. A substantial portion of them use a non-standard grip. Some of these use the second joint to cover the holes, and you might fairly say that's the piper's grip. What of the rest of them? There are many, many players using a grip very similar to what I do. What to call this hold?

I'd say "Bansuri hold" is preposterous. What does the bansuri have to do with it? Maybe the hold used to play bansuri resembles what we're talking about, but who outside of bansuri players and web wonks know what that is? It fails right there as a descriptive term, adding no useful information for your average Joe, confusing the issue to boot. Try it on a Clareman sometime and see what the response is ("the wha'?").

Ireland is one of the great centers worldwide for this instrument, and the tradition is alive and well (be the grace a' God). Where are you most likely to find people holding their wooden flutes like I do? Ireland, that's where! What are they playing on their flutes? Irish music! Most folks in our little web-world here who are playing wooden simple-system flutes are playing Irish traditional music as well. We need a good, short name for this alternate hold, to use amongst ourselves. I say, let's call it the Irish grip! Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

my main concern regarding terminology is that people stop using the phrase "piper's grip" to refer to anything other than the classical hold.

Agreed. Absolutely.

Now, with regards to what term should replace it, I base my argument for the term "Irish grip" (or hold) on the fact that so many players in Ireland do it this way.

Do they? I admit to only having very limited experience of Ireland myself, alas, but from what I have seen there and from what I see among ITM players in Britain, I doubt your assertion. I reiterate my observation in my previous post. Of course, there is no statistical evidence available to support either of us on this - we are merely asserting our impressions based on our personal experience.

Ireland is full of flute-players. Fairly seething with them, it is. A substantial portion of them use a non-standard grip. Some of these use the second joint to cover the holes, and you might fairly say that's the piper's grip.

Indeed; we agree on that, though my impression is that that "substantial proportion" is still rather a minority.

What of the rest of them? There are many, many players using a grip very similar to what I do. What to call this hold?

I ask again, are there really? Have we anyone else on here even who will admit to doing something closely similar to you? Or people living in Ireland who can view your video and then tell us what they see around them? I do agree - have done so since seeing what you mean - that a distinct name for your hold would be useful. (We have "the Rockstro". How about "the Sharer"?)

I'd say "Bansuri hold" is preposterous. What does the bansuri have to do with it? Maybe the hold used to play bansuri resembles what we're talking about, but who outside of bansuri players and web wonks know what that is? It fails right there as a descriptive term, adding no useful information for your average Joe, confusing the issue to boot. Try it on a Clareman sometime and see what the response is ("the wha'?").

Fair comment, though I did point out I thought we had little chance of getting anywhere with this (even if we could agree on it just here!!!!) in terms of wider acceptance of a new term based on a clear understanding of what it refers to! It just isn't going to happen. A pity, maybe, but let's be realistic.

[BrendanB]

Now, with regards to what term should replace it, I base my argument for the term "Irish grip" (or hold) on the fact that so many players in Ireland do it this way.

Do they? I admit to only having very limited experience of Ireland myself, alas, but from what I have seen there and from what I see among ITM players in Britain, I doubt your assertion. I reiterate my observation in my previous post. Of course, there is no statistical evidence available to support either of us on this - we are merely asserting our impressions based on our personal experience.

I'm not sure the grip really needs a name, but I do think it's reasonable to say that there are a lot of traditional flute players in both Ireland and the States that use the kind of grip Rob is using. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least twenty. Don't know if this is statistically significant, but Rob certainly isn't alone in holding the flute this way.

The only reason to avoid it is the issue with keys, which has already been mentioned. That said, you can get the keys adjusted. Aran Olwell (Patrick's son) holds the flute more or less this way and has adjusted the keys on his flute to suit him.

B

[Rob Sharer]

Thanks, Brendan. Jem, as far as "asserting our opinions based on our personal experience" is concerned, oughtn't you inquire as to what mine was before calling it into question? You admit limited experience with Ireland. I, as a former long-time resident, have rather greater experience with the Soggy Isle. I put it to you that, to put a fine point on it, I know what I'm talking about here. You, on the other hand, seem to be guessing. Not all experiences are equivalent. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Rob, I'd picked up that you had spent a fair while in Ireland from assorted things you've said over time - didn't need to ask. I certainly don't pretend to knowledge I don't have - clear enough in what I've said. Guessing? No. I stated what I do know and have observed and I questioned your position. Brendan is supporting it - just what I asked for!

I'd still hold off from any adoption of the term "Irish Hold" to describe it as I feel that would imbue it with some kind of apparently authoritative desirability or orthodoxy that, as all this thread and the many arguments about holds hitherto demonstrate, it certainly doesn't have. Yes, it is a functional way to hold a flute that some players of ITM may adopt and find advantageous, but it isn't especially Irish or even dominant there, however frequent it may be - or not.