Flutes in Irish Music - How far back?

[daiv]

ITM, or proto-ITM, is up and running in the 19th century,
it seems, with instruments, jigs, reels, etc. But weren't
the 18th century economic conditions you aptly describe
still in place in Ireland in the 19th century,
as bad or worse?

i would agree that they were probably just as bad off when the music as we know today was solidifying as they were before.

i am not very familiar with the history of singing in ireland, so i cant say beyond conjecture, but i would think it is very likely that the sean nos tradition that we are familiar with and the harping tradition both come from the same source, and the traditional dance music was created to fit into the same aesthetics.

this is sort of a side question, but does anybody know of any singing traditions that sound similar to the sean nos?

[flutefry]

Jigs very likely come from the baroque dances in 6/8 time called "gigues". I read (I think on thesession.org) that one suggestion for the origin of "reel" is from "quadrille", but this may not be correct.

Hugh

[Gordon]

I'm not an anthropologist or whatever you'd have to be, but it certainly seems to me that music is more commonly made by the lower classes and more commonly consumed by the upper classes. Music is typically part of class/social struggle, too. So if anyone was feeling oppressed it's likely there was music being made.

I'd have to agree with this -- I can't think of many folk tunes that came directly from classical (or Baroque) pieces, although I can think of many Baroque and classical pieces adapted from folk and dance tunes.
Look at the music America adopted and adapted from the slaves; surely, there were never less idle people on the planet, and yet, both vocal and instrumental music came out of this existence, and even when it evolved into a more sophisticated music over time, it never really lost its key ingredients that made it more African than European.

John may be right that ITM - as we know it - probably was distinctly different then from now, but I would bet the rhythms and modes used were not - and possibly some of the instrumentations, too. It makes little sense that peasant life didn't include its own heritage and culture, and this would have included music and instrumentation that evolved with a fair amount of independence from the cultural elite. Beyond that, there are clear similiarities between "Celtic" music from a variety of linguistically related countries and Ireland, whereas the relationship between these musical forms and the more upper-crust music of the same time period seems more parallel than inter-connected. Just as the Irish language held up under British rule, I suspect an inordinate amount of tunes did, too.

[Gordon]

Jigs very likely come from the baroque dances in 6/8 time called "gigues". I read (I think on thesession.org) that one suggestion for the origin of "reel" is from "quadrille", but this may not be correct.

Hugh

More likely 'twas the other way 'round.

[peeplj]

Hey guys, I remember from my music major days: gigue is just Italian for "jig."

--James

[Gordon]

Right, my point was that a jig for folk dancing more likely occurred before one for Baroque court dancing. Who first coined the term, seems to me, is less important.

[SteveB]

Poverty and oppression have never been an impediment to a strong musical tradition. One only has to point to African-American music in all its incarnations (blues, jazz, R&B, hip-hop).

Daiv wrote:

this is sort of a side question, but does anybody know of any singing traditions that sound similar to the sean nos?

If you listen to field recordings of old ballads collected in rural Newfoundland, the singing style is very similar in many respects to Irish "sean nos" singing. This is evident even in songs of English origin collected from areas of the province where the population is overwhelmingly of West Country extraction.


SteveB

[johnkerr]

Poverty and oppression have never been an impediment to a strong musical tradition.

Right. But the question I was responding to was "were the whistle and flute prominent in Ireland in 1750?" I replied that poor folk, if they had instruments, would have had very rudimentary ones, like perhaps the whistle. Flutes, probably not, as the wooden ones were still being used in orchestras then and would have been expensive.

The harp was an instrument of the upper class. It wouldn't have been found in a one-room country cottage in 1750.

Anyone who is interested in learning more about this topic should try to find a book called A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music by Dr. Gearoid O hAllmhurain (The O'Brien Press, Dublin, 1998). I don't know, though, if it's still in print or not.

[SteveB]

I don't think ITM as such existed during the 18th century. When you're poor and starving, music is not one of your highest priorities in life.

John,

this was the part of your previous post that prompted my response. It seemed to imply that there wasn't a very strong musical tradition amongst the rural Irish peasantry in the 18th century. I agree that the rural dance music played on Ireland in 1750 probably had only a vague resemblance to what we know as ITM today, but I suspect that there was much music nonetheless.

I also agree that the flute (other than some simple home-made varieties) was likely not very common in rural Irish dance music before the 2nd half of the 19th century. I've even read that the flute did not really come into its own as a traditional instrument until the early 20th century, thanks to the influence of the likes of John McKenna.

[peeplj]

To try to see it as they must have seen it:

If another like Theobald Boehm came along today and did something to the flute that caught the imaginations (and pocketbooks) of flutists everywhere, in one hundred and fifty years or so, will they be talking about how the silver Boehm flute and wooden Irish flute are the traditional flutes for folk music?

If I could pick up a handmade Haynes or Powell or some such for a few hundred because the used flute market was suddenly glutted with them because the pros were all playing something new and different, it would be a no-brainer...not to replace my Hammy, mind you, but to play alongside it.

When you look at it from that perspective, maybe it's no wonder that the flute made its way into ITM music, just like it's wormed its way into rock and jazz as well.

--James

[johnkerr]

I don't think ITM as such existed during the 18th century. When you're poor and starving, music is not one of your highest priorities in life.

John,

this was the part of your previous post that prompted my response. It seemed to imply that there wasn't a very strong musical tradition amongst the rural Irish peasantry in the 18th century. I agree that the rural dance music played on Ireland in 1750 probably had only a vague resemblance to what we know as ITM today, but I suspect that there was much music nonetheless.

Depends how you define 'much', I suppose. Clearly there were people playing what now has evolved into ITM, but not to the level of presence that music would have had in the aristocracy, where you had the traveling harpers and bards like O'Carolan, Continental-style chamber and orchestral music in Dublin, etc. A much bigger presence in the culture than a few guys here and there playing jigs and reels. The rise of the traveling dancing master in rural Ireland didn't take place until the early 1800s, after all. ITM pre-1800 would have been more of a private, personal thing than a communal, public thing.

[sbfluter]

I think there were always flutes. The Chumash tribe here in my local area made flutes from Elderberry bushes. I believe anywhere there are tubes there will be flutes. Flutes and drums have to be the original instruments. Zither's not too far afterwards.

That's all opinion, though, and all just to say that I don't think you need manufacturing or "flute makers", or an upper class to dump unwanted instruments or anything like that to have flutes in any traditional music.

[peeplj]

I think there were always flutes. The Chumash tribe here in my local area made flutes from Elderberry bushes. I believe anywhere there are tubes there will be flutes. Flutes and drums have to be the original instruments. Zither's not too far afterwards.

That's all opinion, though, and all just to say that I don't think you need manufacturing or "flute makers", or an upper class to dump unwanted instruments or anything like that to have flutes in any traditional music.

I agree.

However, if you suddenly have a large amount of high quality instruments available for next to nothing, then don't be surprised when people who can suddenly afford them do buy them.

Musicians who buy a previously orchestral instrument probably aren't going to start learning orchestral music on it, though--they are very likely to start learning to play it on tunes they already know, but they will maybe base their approach on what they have heard other musicians do.

I think that may be why some parts of nineteenth century performance practice (such as avoiding breath vibrato) became "traditional," where other more esoteric practices, such as sensitive tones and heavy use of alternate fingerings, did not.

--James

[flutefry]

According to the shorter Oxford, both Gordon and Peeplj are correct. The baroque "gigue" is derived from "jig". Jig mean a dance with leaping appeared in the 1500s, but the origin of the word is unknown.

Hugh

[treeshark]

The oboe or variants of, were popular folk instruments all across europe at that time, it would be a shock to go back in time and find your ITM played on oboes and recorders...