To thumbhole or not to thumbhole????

Dabri · Post by **Dabri** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:56 pm

Hey all,

I have a birthday coming up and, after much use of the 'search' feature of this forum to learn all your opinions, I have decided to ask hubby to splurge for a Burke D Brass Narrow Bore whistle.

But the big question -- should I get a thumbhole or not?

It appears some of you think that the oxxooo fingering on the Burke makes for a slightly sharp C nat. But if I learn a tune using the thumbhole for the C nat, I'm thinking it could be awkward to play that tune on other whistles that don't have the thumbhole.

Opinions/experience with this???? Thanks!

Dabri

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:03 pm

I wouldn't worry about whatever sharpness exists in Cnat. You will only care with slow tunes and you can half hole if it bothers you. Perfecty wonderful whistlers play perfectly wonderfully without the C hole.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:00 pm

Thumb say so, and thumb say no ... it's thumbthing to think about.

Though, personally, I'd skip it. ... But, that's just my two tenths.

Oh, and I half hole for the Cnat. I play a Burke DBSBT most, and it works fine.

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:35 pm

Left thumb holes for C natural can be very handy, and there isn't a big learning curve since they are positioned where your left thumb naturally rests on the back of the tube.
It's not difficult to keep the hole sealed when not in use, so that it doesn't interfere with the tuning of the normal six-hole major scale.
It's also no problem to just put a piece of tape over it if you don't like it.

Right pinkie C natural holes are more useful since they give you the note an extra octave lower, but they do require a bit more practice to master.
Another plus is that right pinkie C natural holes can simply be ignored when not in use, but I don't think Burke offers that option.

Lyn D · Post by **Lyn D** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:25 pm

Burke whistles are awesome. I have the DBSBT (key of D brass session
with the black tip). I liked it so much, that, a few months ago I tried a Burke C, with a thumbhole, but I didn't care for the thumbhole. I like playing oxxooo for C nat. much better, and, also, I have the same fingering on all my whistles for C nat., not oxxooo on some and a thumbhole on another. I hope you get your Burke. You'll be really happy with it. Happy Birthday.

Lyn

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:17 pm

To me, putting a thumbhole on a whistle is like...well, I can't think of any clever analogy. But it's taking a feature from a non-Irish instrument (the recorder) and sticking it on an Irish instrument, though the Irish instrument has no need whatsoever for such, and generations of Irish musicians have done just fine without such.
I have Burkes in low D, G, A, high C and high D, and I have no trouble with the C naturals. There are two aspects to playing C natural, fingering and blowing. About fingering, I do on whistle what pipers do on the uilleann pipes, that is partially uncurl the index finger rather than lift it straight off the hole, giving a nice glide up, and flattening the pitch a tad. Also, I blow C natural a bit on the soft side and C sharp a bit harder in order for both to be in tune.
Now the extra hole at the bottom for the pinkie, so that you can play low C (and by halfholing, low C sharp) is a great idea and I wish Burkes were available with that option.
About C natural fingerings, on whistle I use either:
oxx oox
or:
oxx xox
which last is the uilleann pipe fingering.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:07 pm

I quite like thumbholes. No need to get one on a Burke, but you might like it. You might also not like it, in which case it would be a bad thing. But then you could put a little tape on it and it would go away. Then you would have something to talk to people about at sessions when they say "Hey how come you have tape on yer tooter?"

Most Burkes I've played play a perfect cnat with oxxooo. Though I've played a few that play a cnat that's merely excellent with that fingering.

Thumbholes can facilitate some ornaments that are fun.

Doc

LorenzoFlute · Post by **LorenzoFlute** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:35 am

i alwais use the half hole for the c nat, it makes it in tune on all whistles and simple system flute, and its easy to use

if you find the oxx ooo (or similar) easier u can use it in all the fast tunes, and u can half hole for the slow tunes to have a fine c nat... no need for the thumb hole

Tootler · Post by **Tootler** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:09 pm

pancelticpiper wrote:To me, putting a thumbhole on a whistle is like...well, I can't think of any clever analogy. But it's taking a feature from a non-Irish instrument (the recorder) and sticking it on an Irish instrument, though the Irish instrument has no need whatsoever for such, and generations of Irish musicians have done just fine without such.

Leaving aside the remarks about what is and what isn't an "Irish" instrument which is a discussion for elsewhere, this comment shows a distinct lack of understanding of the difference between a recorder and a whistle. Putting a thumb hole on a whistle as proposed by the original poster is simply a means to get better intonation for the Cnat, which is a weak note on a whistle. The instrument remains a whistle. I know of other added holes on whistles to make it easier to play certain notes. The result is still a whistle.

The thumbhole on a recorder serves a different purpose. It vents some air when playing in the second octave. By venting a little air, the second octave notes can be overblown with little increase in volume. A beneficial side effect of this is to improve intonation in the second octave as the octave overblows are more accurately in tune.

Geoff

falkbeer · Post by **falkbeer** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:58 pm

Tootler wrote: The thumbhole on a recorder serves a different purpose. It vents some air when playing in the second octave. By venting a little air, the second octave notes can be overblown with little increase in volume. A beneficial side effect of this is to improve intonation in the second octave as the octave overblows are more accurately in tune.

Geoff

And it lets you play up to D (on a C recorder) without overblowing. The recorder really is a quite wonderful instrument, but that´s another discussion in another forum!

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:50 am

Actually if I saw someone at a session with a thumbhole on their whistle, I wouldn't say anything, I would just assume that they came to Irish music from the recorder or Boehm flute (it's almost always such people who feel a need for a thumbhole).
About me not understanding the difference between a recorder and a whistle, I understand these instruments perfectly well. I never said that putting a thumbhole on a whistle transforms it into a recorder; that is absurd. I said that the thumbhole is a borrowing from a different instrument, which it is. Whistles do not need and never have needed thumbholes. The cross-fingered C natural on my whistles is not weak and needs no improving.

Tucson Whistler · Post by **Tucson Whistler** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:30 am

I don't have experience with using a thumbhole, so I hope no one minds me adding in my thoughts. I say "why fix what not broken?" The whistle has been played for centuries the way it is and we were all drawn to it (despite a few sharp or flat notes). I think the simplicity of the whistle is part of its beauty. Besides, I can't imagine the C nat would be so sharp that it would sound awful. Nobody would buy the whistles then. Also, I think that a thumbhole would be confusing if you're used to oxxooo or half-holing. Whichever you decide, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Oh yeah, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:10 am

It is perfectly OK to put a C-nat thumb hole on a whistle.

I have also seen guitars with 7 strings and cellos with 5. It's something master players seem to reach-for when they need a little more to explore thier musical excellence.

Are there any great whistlers using these? It would be interesting to hear what they are doing with it.

MattL · Post by **MattL** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:49 am

Yeah...ok, why not.

I've been playing whistle since I was a kid - for almost 30 years now. I play Irish music. I live in Chicago and play in sessions weekly. I wouldn't call myself a "master" but I don't suck.

Is that good enough credentials for everyone? Ok.

I have many whistles including a set of Abells I've had made one at a time over the last 5 years. They all have thumbholes for C-natural on them. Why? Because I like that hole for the second octave C-natural - it's just easier to work with and much better sounding for that one note.

That's it - end of story. I use it for one note and since I was having whistles custom made that I would keep for life that would be MY whistles I had them made for MY playing.

All this talk of what is traditional and what is from the classical world is a bunch of crap. Knock it off you guys and just go find what YOU like and what makes YOU a better musician and do that.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:54 am

The thumb hole will simplify fingering and provide helpful
options
in a lot of passages. But one is unlikely to
use it always. There are places where
the cross fingered C nat works better. I think the thumb hole
is a good idea.
No,
it will not make it harder to play whistles without
a thumb hole. The body/brain gives a little
wriggle and plays them as before.

On flute I move back and forth effortlessly tween
keyed and unkeyed--the C natural key is a great
help, though once again I don't always use it.

Why not go for something new
and interesting? Nothing to be lost.
Just gives you additional options.