End of "High End" whistles?

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keithsandra
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Re: the end of the high end whistle

Post by keithsandra »

So, what it's coming down to is, just how much more are people willing to pay for what they think is a better tone? On this basis, how can one argue - people have a right to their own opinions and don't have to defend their choices with me or anyone else so far as I'm concerned.

Other points this discussion has raised are beauty; craftsmanship; ease of playing; wind requirement; volume; tuning; strength; cloggability. Anything else?

On this basis I think Dr G's freely shared experiments, and the experiments of others like him to come, including those already here like Glenn Schultz, are going to lead us to new instruments made out of all kinds of materials, traditional and otherwise, at 10 times less cost than the present collection of high end whistles. Surely this can only be good for whistling?

Because of thoughtful and insightful postings like yours, Jim, I see a concensus forming here, though murkily at present through the uneasy possibility of change that's being suggested... :devil:

K.

PS: I've listened to all the high end whistles, played four, and own three. I own nine low end whistles too. I'm coming to the conclusion whistles might only be as good as the people who play them. At a recent concert a player threw his whistle over his shoulder in disgust in mid play, then snatched up a colleague's spare low end whistle, which he used for the rest of the concert with no discernible difference. He is a long time Irish whistler with many best selling CDs to his credit too. I wish I could say he threw away a high end whistle, but I never found out. :twisted:
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Re: the end of the high end whistle

Post by Lance_Wallen »

keithsandra wrote:So, what it's coming down to is, just how much more are people willing to pay for what they think is a better tone? On this basis, how can one argue - people have a right to their own opinions and don't have to defend their choices with me or anyone else so far as I'm concerned.

Other points this discussion has raised are beauty; craftsmanship; ease of playing; wind requirement; volume; tuning; strength; cloggability. Anything else?

On this basis I think Dr G's freely shared experiments, and the experiments of others like him to come, including those already here like Glenn Schultz, are going to lead us to new instruments made out of all kinds of materials, traditional and otherwise, at 10 times less cost than the present collection of high end whistles. Surely this can only be good for whistling?

Because of thoughtful and insightful postings like yours, Jim, I see a concensus forming here, though murkily at present through the uneasy possibility of change that's being suggested... :devil:

K.

PS: I've listened to all the high end whistles, played four, and own three. I own nine low end whistles too. I'm coming to the conclusion whistles might only be as good as the people who play them. At a recent concert a player threw his whistle over his shoulder in disgust in mid play, then snatched up a colleague's spare low end whistle, which he used for the rest of the concert with no discernible difference. He is a long time Irish whistler with many best selling CDs to his credit too. I wish I could say he threw away a high end whistle, but I never found out. :twisted:
No amount of "Awesome sounding" cheap whistles will be able to overcome the desire to own a beautiful hand crafted traditional item.

Some people pick up an instrument with 2 things in mind, how it plays and how it sounds, nothing else matters.

For those people, yes, its very exciting that cheaper whistles are showing up with great sound and playability.

Some people pick up an instrument with a third thing in mind though.. refinement. There's little things in the "high end" whistle world that you get, that you simply wont see on a "low end" whistle no matter how good it sounds. Things like matched woodgrain on either side of a tuning slide to make it look uniform, patinaed brass finish on the accents of an old wooden whistle, etc.

Part of why I'm so attracted to wooden whistles is because of their natural materials, an all wooden whistle has 0 processed materials in it, its all natural and that makes me happy.

I appreciate a good sound but if I have to pay extra to get the same sound out of a work of art instead of a peice of plumbing I will.
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Post by jim stone »

'On this basis I think Dr G's freely shared experiments, and the experiments of others like him to come, including those already here like Glenn Schultz, are going to lead us to new instruments made out of all kinds of materials, traditional and otherwise, at 10 times less cost than the present collection of high end whistles. Surely this can only be good for whistling?'

It's already happened.
Good PVC whistles have been here for at least a decade. There's been
a lot of experimentation. All sorts of materials
have been tried. PVC, delrin, ABS plastic, copper, brass, nickel,
aluminum alloy, rolled tin, silver, umpteen different kinds of wood.
Sure it's been good for whistling.

The fact that lots of good musicians have moved
to higher end whistles e.g. Mary Bergin now plays
a Sindt, Joannie Madden a Copeland A, John
Skelton a Sindt A and Bb, T. E. McCullough
a Burke aluminum, Grey Larsen a Copeland D nickel,
and so on, suggests strongly that a number of
knowledgeable people whose chief concern
is acoustics think these whistles beat the
cheapies, however good. Which supports the
view that they do.

Maybe the guido is going to blow all this out of the water.
Maybe it transcends the Schultz whistles.
I hope so, but a healthy skepticism is in order.
I'm sure they're good whistles. Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Last edited by jim stone on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the end of the high end whistle

Post by falkbeer »

keithsandra wrote:So, what it's coming down to is, just how much more are people willing to pay for what they think is a better tone? On this basis, how can one argue - people have a right to their own opinions and don't have to defend their choices with me or anyone else so far as I'm concerned.

Other points this discussion has raised are beauty; craftsmanship; ease of playing; wind requirement; volume; tuning; strength; cloggability. Anything else?
I believe it´s a misconception to think that PVC whistles are ceaper because the material are cheap. When you think of it the material cost in a Burke whistle comparing to the price it is negligible. If someone produces a first class whistle made of PVC water pipe it should be sold for as much as any other high class whistle. For example, the Burke whistle is high price because of a very good design, high craftsmanship and high demand on the market. Aluminium and brass tubing is actually also very cheap! Wood isn´t that expensive either!
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Post by Kelhorn Mike »

Hi all,
This discussion is a bit out there and as I've been keeping a low profile
lately I feel it's time to chime in. Though in principle I agree with much of what Keith is saying and though I have never seen nor played Dr. Guido's
whistles I'm sure he is a very clever and talented fellow and makes and
designs fine whistles but Keith goes way overboard in his praise. According to him Dr. Guido has reinvented the wheel or at least revolutionized whistle making and I don't buy it. I'll be totally immodest and say we did that here at Susato 15 years ago and I'll catch hell for saying that but so be it. A
diverse market that gives consumers many choices and price points is I think good for all players and all the good makers and manufacturers in
that it will stimulate interest in the instrument and the music it makes.

Kelhorn Mike
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Post by Kelhorn Mike »

Hi all,
This discussion is a bit out there and as I've been keeping a low profile
lately I feel it's time to chime in. Though in principle I agree with much of what Keith is saying and though I have never seen nor played Dr. Guido's
whistles I'm sure he is a very clever and talented fellow and makes and
designs fine whistles but Keith goes way overboard in his praise. According to him Dr. Guido has reinvented the wheel or at least revolutionized whistle making and I don't buy it. I'll be totally immodest and say we did that here at Susato 15 years ago and I'll catch hell for saying that but so be it. A
diverse market that gives consumers many choices and price points is I think good for all players and all the good makers and manufacturers in
that it will stimulate interest in the instrument and the music it makes.

Kelhorn Mike
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keithsandra
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Post by keithsandra »

Jim said:

"The fact that lots of good musicians have moved
to higher end whistles e.g. Mary Bergin now plays
a Sindt, Joannie Madden a Copeland A, John
Skelton a Sindt A and Bb, T. E. McCullough
a Burke aluminum, Grey Larsen a Copeland D nickel,
and so on, suggests strongly that a number of
knowledgeable people whose chief concern
is acoustics think these whistles beat the
cheapies, however good. Which supports the
view that they do."

We don't know the reasons these people have for playing what they're playing, or whether their reasons are objective or subjective or even whether cost was a factor or not.

IMHO I think there'll always be a market for beautiful, well crafted, accoustically wonderful whistles. Just like vintage cars. But will the mainstream pay ten times more for a whistle that doesn't deliver ten times the attributes of a low cost, high tech whistle that's beautiful in future?

By the way, don't let's miss my point that Dr Gonzato's introduction of the Linux philosophy of free and total access to the detailed mysteries of whistle making is new in the whistling world. He uses input from fellow enthusiasts throughout Europe and the States to fine tune his findings on the free manual on his web page - his whistling Wikipedia, if you like. In my view this mass giving away of the secrets of whistle making is revolutionary. He is taking the pioneer efforts of all past and present, low and high whistle makers to the next level, IMHO. With what he is giving us we can get a local craftsman to produce whistles custom made to our exact requirements if we like, at a fraction of the cost of current high end whistles. Or we can make our own whistles until we're satisfied. I've just bought enough plastic materials for ten of his whistles for $10.

K.
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Post by Tommy »

keithsandra wrote:
By the way, don't let's miss my point that Dr Gonzato's introduction of the Linux philosophy of free and total access to the detailed mysteries of whistle making is new in the whistling world.
The Bloody Hand Whistle plans are well known to C&F.
By Robert McElroy

I am trying to be nice about saying that perhaps if you did some research first before your statements are written. No one is trying to take anything from you or Dr Gonzato.
Last edited by Tommy on Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Post by Aanvil »

Oh my...

Someone is smitten.



I remember my first "real" girlfriend... then I went to college.


:o



(I'm just joshing... we'll not about the college part. :D )
Aanvil

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Post by Wanderer »

It seems like here that keithsandra is focusing on the "value versus cost" debate, which we've had here since time immemorial.

In doing so, I think a fundamental point is getting lost.

I *like* Guido's whistles. I've owned two. But I don't play them. Why not? They don't suit my tastes exactly. They're good whistles, no doubt.

It's not about value....so what's it about? Taste. Variety. Ask 10 different whistlers what's important to them in a whistle, and you'll get 5-10 different answers.

There's no way Guido's instruments will appeal to every taste. For every great high-end whistle someone loves (Thin Weasels, Copelands, Abells, Burkes, etc), there's gonna be a group of people who don't like it--because it doesn't suit their taste. The Low Tech whistle is no different.

Trust me, Guido's whistles won't make a huge dent in the whistle market. ;)
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Post by Guinness »

Eventually some master's student of computer science, for lack of a better thesis project, will develop a midi whistle that will sound exactly like a finely tweaked Gen or Copeland.

It can sound like wood, pvc, brass, silver, platinum, pewter, lead, Swarovski crystal or even other instruments like Irish flute (large holed Rudall of course), uilleann pipes, Native American flute, Dizi, Tibetan Bone flute... a 9000 year old Chinese bone flute even. All for a mere $59 per VSTi sample--- way way cheaper than any eBayed O'Riordan, 10x less in fact.

AND it'll be 802.11g enabled so your computer can pipe all those tunes for you. Yep, all you'll have to do is twiddle your twaddler and you'll be the star player at the session! Just remember to keep your laptop hidden in your knapsack.

Sadly, it will mean the spiritual demise of C&F as no longer will the discussion focus on which whistle sounds the best but rather how to interface the darn thing to an iPhone.
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Post by Lance_Wallen »

Guinness wrote:Eventually some master's student of computer science, for lack of a better thesis project, will develop a midi whistle that will sound exactly like a finely tweaked Gen or Copeland.

It can sound like wood, pvc, brass, silver, platinum, pewter, lead, Swarovski crystal or even other instruments like Irish flute (large holed Rudall of course), uilleann pipes, Native American flute, Dizi, Tibetan Bone flute... a 9000 year old Chinese bone flute even. All for a mere $59 per VSTi sample--- way way cheaper than any eBayed O'Riordan, 10x less in fact.

AND it'll be 802.11g enabled so your computer can pipe all those tunes for you. Yep, all you'll have to do is twiddle your twaddler and you'll be the star player at the session! Just remember to keep your laptop hidden in your knapsack.

Sadly, it will mean the spiritual demise of C&F as no longer will the discussion focus on which whistle sounds the best but rather how to interface the darn thing to an iPhone.
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Carbon fibre

Post by falkbeer »

Abut new material in classical instruments.

http://www.luisandclark.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww

Has anybody tried carbon fibre in flutes or whistles?
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Re: Carbon fibre

Post by Lance_Wallen »

falkbeer wrote:Abut new material in classical instruments.

http://www.luisandclark.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gI3chGtww

Has anybody tried carbon fibre in flutes or whistles?
I did a search on these forums and there's one fellow who made a carbon composite whistle, I don't think it was "carbon fiber" as most people think of carbon fiber, it wasn't made with the actual mesh, but it was pretty much the same material.
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Post by keithsandra »

Wanderer, you're missing the point.

No one's suggesting Dr Gonzato's present whistles, as good as they undoubtedly are at any price, are themselves going to threaten the existence of today's high end whistles. While his whistles do demonstrate very impressively an excellence that is equal to today's high whistles, using common materials at very low cost, it's the whistles that others are going to develop as a result of his "open source" Internet manual (that any serious whistle maker can input and fine-tune), that'll provide the challenge to today's excellent but high cost whistles - much like Linux has spread round the world and is challenging Microsoft.

Anyway, whether Dr G will actually produce many more whistles for public use is moot, IMHO. I don't think he's contemplating changing jobs.

I am now going to shut up and let everyone else have the last word.

Michael Burke et al, please feel free to eviscerate my enthusiasm. All this arguing is knackering me... :boggle:

K

K.
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